EP #38 | Stepping Back to Move Forward with Karlin Vaessen
Welcome to the Designers Oasis podcast. I'm your host, Kate Bendewald, interior designer, mama and CEO of a thriving interior design business, built on authentic word of mouth referrals. It wasn't that long ago that I stepped away from my corporate architecture job to build my own dream, one that would allow me more time with the people that I love, the ability to serve my clients at the highest level, and to make a great living. It wasn't always easy, and I've made my share of mistakes along the way. Fast forward to today, and I've learned a thing or two. This podcast is for you - the inspired, creative, ambitious, and let's admit it, occasionally overwhelmed interior designer who shares this dream of transforming lives by transforming homes. Join me and my guests each week as we walk through practical ways to build an interior design business you love, and helps you transform your clients' lives. You can do this.
Kate Bendewald
Well, hello there and welcome back to the designers Oasis podcast. I'm your host, Kate Bendewald. Today, we are joined by my dear friend Carlin fasten of merit born architecture. Carlin and I first met over a decade ago when we worked at AWS architecture. Since then, she went on to co found an architecture firm doing work primarily in the hospitality industry. And in the last year, Carlin launched her own architecture studio in an effort to bring more flexibility to her life while raising her young son. To me, Carlin is one of the most confident and competent women I know. And today she shares her journey of coming into her own, we talk about the value of not only honing your process, but sticking to it even when clients want you to take shortcuts. We also talked about the value it brings to your life personally, when working with only the kinds of projects and clients that light you up, and really owning the value that you bring to your clients and their projects. What I love is that especially if you're just starting out this interview can help you future pace your career, meaning you can view this as the goal. If you don't yet have the luxury of working with only the clients and projects that light you up. I hope this sets the stage of what is possible and what you can work toward. Thank you so much for joining us today. Please welcome my friend Carlin. How are you my beautiful friend?
Karlin Vaessen
I am great. I am great. It's Friday. It's kind of sunny Virgenes and feel like it's gonna be a good weekend. How about you?
Kate Bendewald
Oh my gosh, yes. I love Fridays I I purposely keep them chill. I usually record some podcast episodes with some friends hang out. I'm trying to work half days on Fridays. So yeah, it's good. I'm looking forward. We just as you know, we just had bitter cold and snow just fly through for the last couple of days, but it's going to be 60 this weekend. So I'm really looking forward to that.
Karlin Vaessen
Same same girl.
Kate Bendewald
Awesome. Okay, well, welcome. So for those of you we're recording, by the way, ABR always be recording. Yeah, so for those of you listening, I am joined by my dear friend, Carlin. Carlin is an architect and she and I met when we were working at US architecture a few 1000 years ago, it seems like it was like, Oh my gosh, I have to admit, I don't know if I've ever admitted this to you. But I had such a girl crush on you when we worked there you were you were so cute to you. Like there was this sort of dynamic and I don't know if you had the same experience but I felt this way that was like the interior designers and the architects and it was like almost this weird hierarchy feeling but I never got that feeling from you. And also you would just like walk in with like the hottest outfits on still like professional and cute. And just like all these little Like, I'm sorry, but like, typical architects that we worked with, with like their mock turtlenecks and wire rimmed glasses, and just like, dominated by men, and then there was Carlin and I was like, Who is this hot girl? I want to know. I wouldn't be her friend. And then I'm glad that that ended up happening. But yeah, that was that's my confession to you.
Karlin Vaessen
While the feeling was mutual, I think there's definitely a feeling like, we do this and you do that. And it's, it should be integrated, right? Like, so much of what we do should be collaborative should be integrated. And honestly, true story. Designers are more fun than architects. And I can say that because I am. So I was like, How do I get to hang out with those people, they get to drink wine during the day, they have all these product guys come in. And they're doing you know, they have like, the coolest fabric samples. Let's do this. Let's work together.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, yeah. No, I love that. How was that working for you? Because Okay, so we met at AWS and then you went on to I don't actually know the full story of NEOs studios and all that. So let's get into it. But I just want to hear from you kind of being this woman, this, in my opinion, relatively young woman in this world of like, dominated by white male architects. Was that ever? Did you ever find yourself having to kind of like, take up more space than some of these other folks? Or was that all pretty natural? Or, you know, did that not feel like a thing for you? What was your experience? Like?
Karlin Vaessen
I've never been one to take up too much space. Even right now talking about myself a little uncomfortable. I'm not used to.
Kate Bendewald
That may be how you feel on the inside, but that is not how you present I just see this. Yes, that's right. Big badass woman.
Karlin Vaessen
Rule number one, take it till you make it now. Um, I it's definitely a male dominated culture or industry. My mentors were largely male, my colleagues, and then of course, the clients, right? mostly male. It's never really been an issue for me, I sort of felt like you leave with your competency, right? So you show up prepared? Know what you're talking about? If you don't ask the right questions, that kind of thing. And, and eventually, you establish your worth in the group? Have I been exposed to my fair share of condescension, or, you know, being on a jobsite and being the only female and saying, you know, I don't think this is built correctly, I don't think it's going to drain right, and having the contractor put his hand on your shoulder and say, Are you sure you saw that? Right? You know, it's like, well, I can't help you. Because it's built, you know, and it's not right. But you know, you just, again, leave with your competency, and it works itself out. But I'm sure there's a lot of that out there. I almost feel like sometimes it's an advantage, because you're unique. And I believe in the power of lipstick, and a smile, you know, I mean, I think being being gracious is always a good thing. So I don't know if it works for me, but I don't think it worked against me.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, oh my gosh, I love that it's such a kind of a different way to look at it, instead of looking at it as this thing that you have to overcome. flipping the script and being like, no, actually, this is your superpower. And yeah, you can you can lead by example, without being a dick without being, you know, rude or condescending. But, you know, having the knowledge and expertise to back that up never hurts.
Karlin Vaessen
Because Because competence is such it's it's such a strong rhetoric, right. But like, I've also seen the flip side when people are overly confident, it's maybe not the best idea. But, you know, so you walk the line, because what we do is subjective. So, you know, it's, it's making sure that everybody's on board with the idea, right? You're not like going rogue, but yeah, I mean, I think if you focus too much on the drawbacks in this industry, you're you're not going to feel real good about what you're doing. You know, you have to sort of, you have to love it. And, and in my opinion, love the people that you work with, right? Love, love the collaboration, because that's our process, right? We need to work with the people to get the best solutions. And that involves not just the client, but like, our reps and our designers and our contractors and all the people that put together good ideas come from everywhere. So it's not like we're the Savior. It's like we're aggregating the best solutions, right? Yeah, we're big problem solvers. So if you if you can come to the table with a creative idea, people will respect that and go, Oh, I didn't think about it that way. But You know, even if you don't end up using the idea, it's like, oh, that person is coming with a creative idea. And next time, maybe that's gonna help me not have to scrap a whole design or rip out a cabinet. Right? Yeah,
Kate Bendewald
make it work. Yeah, I'm, I'm my wheels are turning, I was interviewing somebody, and we were having a similar discussion. And it's just like, sometimes, especially when you're establishing a new relationship, and you're in those early phases, it pays to just like, really intentionally step out and look for opportunities to make sure that they feel like they have a voice at the table. And then like, it's not the Carlin show, it's not the Kate show, it's like, where we have the end goal is are we all have the best interest in mind is the end goal and keeping that into infocus is so important. But yeah, I just, we were talking about egos and how they can sometimes get in the way, if you're not, you know, if you're not really working to establish those early, I'm currently GE seeing my own kitchen renovation. And so we've had a number of trades coming in and propping up quotes and whatnot. And I can't tell you how many times these folks are so taken aback when I'm like, you know, I've definitely put thought into the design, right? I've pored over the details. But when I come in, and I'm like, Yeah, but I want to, you know, it's really important to me, if you see opportunities to do so and do things better. I want to hear about those, let's throw ideas at the wall. Because, you know, some things will stick not everything well, and they're I think they appreciate that just gesture of letting them know that those opinions matter. Sometimes, we're not always given extended that same grace in other scenarios, but
Karlin Vaessen
when you create buy in, right, you create buying time, even though it's your design, and you know, it's it's your maybe like IP, but you know, it's the product is everybody's product, and so you want the Biden, so I think you know, I mean, it's great part of the process. And I'm big into the process, I'm big into process, don't mess with my process.
Kate Bendewald
Oh my gosh, we just jumped right into it. I want to back up a little bit. Let's rewind you. Okay. I want to know, your background, I want to know, how did you come to the field of architecture? I know you had some really cool educational experiences and kind of walk us through your creative and architectural career.
Karlin Vaessen
Yeah, so I had a mom who was in the travel industry and a dad who was in resort construction, he was an owner's rep. And so we traveled a lot when I was young, internationally and went to mostly warm weather resorts, but like, lived in a lot of places. And, and I was exposed to design early, you know, lots of different cultures, lots of different ideas about form and all these different things. So I think that sort of started the spark. For design, I was always pretty good at school, you know, I got good grades and applied myself, it was a good girl. But I had an art teacher in high school who I think he was honestly just jacked on the idea that somebody cared about art, and might go into that field. And he said, Oh, you know, you could be an architectural renderer. And I remember him telling me how much money those folks make. And the type of product that they produce. You know, these these, at the time was like hand drawings, because I've always been into drawing and painting and the arts in general. And he, you know, he wrote down the fingers, like, how much money I could make, I think he was like, excited that, you know, I might apply myself to this thing. And I remember looking and thinking, well, I could do the drawing but I want to do the design and the drawing like why can't I do the whole thing and so I'm being stubborn as I am decided to go to school for architecture and and toughed it out. It's not for the faint of heart. So when I got out of school, I got a job at a big corporate firm, SLM in Chicago and was doing like really big work, and I was sort of a cog in the machine.
Kate Bendewald
But so for those of you listening, so Miss Skidmore, Owings and Merrill, and they're like, What are some of the projects that they're known for? Like some of the biggest
Karlin Vaessen
Oh, Sears Tower, or the John Hancock building in Chicago?
Kate Bendewald
scheppers by iconic the bird's nest,
Karlin Vaessen
they did the bird's nest. They did the Burj Dubai. Oh, I thought you said the time was the tallest building in the world. And you know, other like little architectural gems, like the inland steel building, and, you know, later, I think one Freedom Tower in New York, that was posed to me, and I'm not saying I'm responsible for all these projects, but I
Kate Bendewald
but that's the that's the, I say this because I want to put a finer point. On the scale of this,
Karlin Vaessen
yeah, right big scale, big business.
Kate Bendewald
That was your first job out of college. It was Yeah. Did you study and didn't you study in France?
Karlin Vaessen
I did. I went to Georgia Tech in Atlanta, and I studied for a year in France in a French, American Italian. So we went to the Ecole de la Villette in, in Paris and studied with French people. So it's really cool, you know, and we went to like, obviously, all the classical landmarks, but also all of the kind of modern gems that exist in the Paris area. And so, I mean, some of the reason I went to that school was because I knew I would get to go to Paris, my junior year. So um, yeah, you've got your you've got your priorities in order. Yes. I mean, I'll with the design bug, I got the travel bug. So yeah. So I went to work for this great big firm, and I didn't know what I wanted, I didn't know what I wanted to do, or necessarily, what you know how you went about doing it, right? I learned in school, you learn a little bit of how to draw and things like that. But you do a lot of conceptual work. And in my case, not a lot of applied work. And so I didn't really know exactly what I was getting into. And I think, as we talk, you'll see that as my career went on, I went from a bigger firm to progressively smaller firm, and now maybe the smallest firm. But But it suits you know, I've I've, the nice thing is I've tried all the different kinds of not all but a lot of different work environments and scales. And there are benefits to all of them, right? Like a large firm has like great resources and lots of interesting people and ideas, and amazing project types and varied project types.
Kate Bendewald
That was my experience at odds and having come from my first job out of college, well, partially while I was in college was very small boutique, high end residential interior design company studio, that the reason AWS was drawn to me was because my experience there gave me the opportunity to create really custom one of a kind pieces. But yeah, that was kind of doing all the, it was doing a little bit of everything. And then I switched to this larger firm. And like you just mentioned, first of all the people was the best part of the job. But the the resources and but that's really where I cut my teeth, and I am so grateful for that experience. It didn't serve me in the long, it wasn't a fit for me in the long term. But I would never take that experience back because it gave me a totally different perspective and a set of skills that has served me
Karlin Vaessen
once. Yeah, absolutely. It's like the foundation, if you learn the foundational skills. And frankly, one day, if you look at your your boss or your mentor, this didn't necessarily happen to me there. But you look at your boss or your mentor and say, Well, I don't want to be like that. When I grow up. It's probably time to move on. Right? It's probably time to try something different. Yeah.
Kate Bendewald
So then, okay, so you worked for them. You found yourself next at us. Is that
Karlin Vaessen
Yeah, so So I was working at SLM, I had a wonderful mentor, I learned all these great, kind of the rules of the road, I would say, but I wanted better balanced. And so I moved out here, all a lot of my friends from Chicago moved out to Denver, we all like to ski and snowboard and wanted a little more life work balance and found it honestly. So then I started working for us. I had a wonderful mentor as he was great because he gave me enough rope to hang myself with, right. So I So initially, when you're when you're a big cog, I'm sorry, when you're a small cog in a big corporate wheel, you put your head down, you don't believe it or not, Kate, ask a lot of questions are rock the boat, when you're me, you just like work really, really hard, and try to suck up all the information. And then, you know, when I went to as I was given a lot more exposure to clients and, and ability to sort of do things more my own way, we sort of operated like a smaller studio and a larger firm. That was a great experience for me. And then my mentor left the company, and I sort of learned how things went. And it actually was the best thing for me and the most formative thing for me. I mean, I love my mentors and my colleagues, you know, my experience, you sort of gained something from every project and every person that you work with. But in this case, I sort of learned that wasn't working for me anymore there you know, I kind of wanted more autonomy and more ability to do my own thing. Just because the system exists or the process exists doesn't mean it's your process and your system and I think the more experience you have And the more frankly, I sort of deferred a lot to the people around me. And once I put myself out there, I learned, oh, I have, I can think on the fly, and I have good ideas to, you know, in this industry, it's hard not to get paralyzed by Well, you know, wow, I wish I had thought of that idea, or that's such a cool design. Maybe I don't, maybe I don't have a cool design like that. It's like, no, there's space for all, all the different types of design all the different size of firms, all the, you know, different types of people and perspectives. So that was really good for me. So I left as after, I think nine or 10 years and started my own company nio studio with two people, two partners, you know, it was a science project, I don't think we had a goal in mind. When we started the company, we just knew we had clients that wanted to work with us. And we weren't necessarily able to do it the way we wanted to in the larger infrastructure of AWS. So I mean, I'm, I'm real proud of what we built. We did a lot of different kinds of projects. I recently left the studio and started my my very own company.
Kate Bendewald
Really, and that's really what I want to get to, too, because that it like, I, first of all, I just learned some things about you that I didn't know, I thought you like were born with confidence, because you just wear it like a glove. When I see you know, you, but it makes sense that you had all of these experiences that kind of have led you to this place. But okay, so you you have and how long were you running? Neil?
Karlin Vaessen
I was there for nine years, too.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, in what kind of projects were you doing there?
Karlin Vaessen
So we um, so we left us with two clients that kind of just wanted to work with our little group, one was Vail Resorts. And the other one was a private developer out of aspen, who was a really small family run business, but wanting to do really big work. And so we were doing high rise projects with them. It's sort of crazy to think about this tiny firm of three people. So so we did some resort work. And then also, like private development, condos and high rise apartments, and then my background is in multifamily. A lot of my work at Oz was multifamily. So I always kind of I like I like, residential, multifamily residential, because it's a little bit everything, right. It's like, it's residential, but it's also hospitality. And it's a little bit of like, all the different things. So you kind of have,
Kate Bendewald
especially today, because, as you know, multifamily developments now are really lifestyle based. And a lot of them will have, you know, hangout spaces
Karlin Vaessen
where humanity is right, yeah,
Kate Bendewald
all the amenities are so luxurious and so fun. And I'm like, I can see myself once my kids are like grown and out of the house and moved out, like just shoring up one of these places and having a fast pass to the airport. Yeah, and they take care of it all. Okay, interesting. So then you recently just in this last year, right, yeah. Have gone out on your own. How has that been for you?
Karlin Vaessen
Well, some of it was, you know, I had some family stuff going on. And I needed like, I have flexibility. And I had, you know, I had flexibility because I own the company, right. But I also had several employees and I ran the business. And I felt like a very big sense of responsibility for like, kind of keeping the machine going. And I think for me, last year, I just needed to sort of take a step back, I reevaluated my priorities and said, I mean, I have a little kid who's four, a son, and I'm all the, with all the things I needed, ultimate flexibility. And with that, it was really wonderful. Like just saying to myself, I've always done it this way. But now my life requires this. So I'm going to, I'm going to just take my time and think about, you know, every every piece of the business invoicing, Project Setup, drawing sets, whatever, why am I doing it like this? Is there a better way, you know, and it's actually yielded a really good result for me? I feel like I have a wonderful balance right now. And it's because I'm, I'm doing things you know, based on my experience in a really smart way.
Kate Bendewald
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Kate Bendewald
That's all let's talk about that some more. Because you there's there's a couple of things I want to tackle. One is, this comes back to the confidence thing like when I hear you talk, when we get together and we are talking shop, I love that you really have come into your own in this way that you have a process that you will not waver on because you know that it works. And you have a very strong sense of what kind of projects you want to take on. And within those what kind of things you are willing to do and not do so can you can you can I think this is really important, especially for young designers, even if that's not something that you have the luxury of doing just yet. To me, this is the goal. And so I think if you could just like talk to as if you're mentoring a younger designer, young business owner, I'm talking about how, you know, what are some of those benefits that it's yielded you? And how, why is it so important? And you know, what are the steps to kind of get there, just I'm just gonna sit back and let you talk about all that. Let's just start with start with telling me telling me specifically about your process, kind of in a nutshell, and why that's so important and why you're you're so adamant about protecting that.
Karlin Vaessen
I think my big, my big realization as of late and this new company is valuing valuing your service and validating your process. And I think it's really easy to it, you know, you have people who come in and say, Oh, I really need this done next week, or, Oh, I really want to work with you. But you just have to cut your feet by 20%. Um, and I think, you know, I mean, for hate, I mean, this, this happens all the time. And I think that, you know, there are times when that's appropriate. I, I just good design takes time. And so I don't know about this week, I always think well, what were you doing a month ago, because it's going to take a month to do it. But I think, you know, the valuing your process, I think there's a few things about it. First of all, it shows your competence. If a client comes to you and says, Oh, well, I know, we usually do this, but let's let's cut out these phases, because we don't really have time to do them. And I want you to work directly. So and so even though, you know, typically we would work together whatever that looks like. And it's like, no, this is my process. This is why it's like this. And and what happens is, is often when you compromise, it doesn't go well. And a client is left with the impression that it didn't go well, but they don't remember why it did. They don't remember that it was their idea. Right. All they know is it didn't go well. And from their side. So you know, in an industry that's so referral based, it's like, I mean, 100% of my work is referral based, I don't mark it, I don't reply to RFPs because I haven't had to, because, you know, you sort of we'll get into that but I mean, that's a that's a boom, right? Like you you don't have to sell yourself because somebody tells somebody else that oh, this person was, you know, easy to work with or made things happen or whatever that is. I find that when folks you know I think people respect you more when you respect your own process. So as and when you value your services when you when you say, oh, yeah, I'll do it for you for 20%. Last, you've just devalued the product that you're providing yes to your client. And you've set the precedent for them when and if they refer you that, oh, Carlin works cheap, and we'll give you a discount, and then all your fees are 20% off. So it's, it's a line, you have to walk, right? I think if you're working for a nonprofit that you feel really strongly about great, or a good friend, you know, I do that kind of stuff all the time, you know, those kinds of discounts. But I think if if you have conviction about why you're worth it, the client will follow suit and will respect you for it. That's,
Kate Bendewald
that's no way to start a project is by devaluing yourself. It's just, oh, well, yeah, I was recently recording, I think it was a podcast episode, and I was talking about how I had, you know, I'd skipped a really important step in my process. And this was not by request of the client. But you know, I've always said, like, the process works, it works for reason, stick to your process. And then, you know, I found myself I didn't take my own advice. And it was because I'd worked for these clients twice before. And they just wanted this small little piece of their house project cut sort of done wasn't a very big project, it was people that I'd worked with, before I knew the house, I knew kind of their budget, I felt like I already had a lot of the information. So what I did is I skipped the consultation. And I just sent them a proposal for what it was. And it ended up being a total nightmare. First of all, the clients themselves had always been a little bit of like walking on eggshells, but they were also like, they paid their bills, they were easier to work with for the most part, but it just it they always felt a little bit egg Shelly. And I didn't, I didn't like a I didn't listen to that intuition. I let that go. I skipped a consultation. And what I later realized was that, you know, the budget that they had given me and the scope were not in alignment. And So had I done the consultation had I stuck to my process, that information probably would have come into focus. And we would never have either chosen to work together. Because I would have said this isn't realistic for what you're wanting to do. Or found another way or revise the budget instead, figuring that out down the line didn't bode well for the for the relationship. And, and at this point, those eggshells became the class and it was like, Oh, wow, this is really like it was it was a combination of me not doing, you know, sticking to my intuition and my gut, but then also just dealing with irrational people. It was one of those gut wrenching moments of just like, how did I find myself here? Like, I'm a professional, I've been doing this for years, you know, and it's like, find yourself questioning everything. And it was like, Okay, let's take a minute here, it's, everything's fine. But um, yeah, sticking to your process is just a really important aspect have to be showing your value. And then, you know, ensuring that when people do ask you, unless, like you just mentioned, there's some good reasons for it, not compromising on your fees. And if your fees aren't a match, then sometimes there's other ways that you can work around that, whether that's phasing something in over time, or changing the scope, but not changing your process.
Karlin Vaessen
Right. And I think, you know, I've been in a situation where I was working on the project. And I was, you know, this person was hard pressing for a cheaper fee. And I finally, like, got the guts to say, you know, I really want to work with you on this, but I know how difficult the process is going to be with the city. I know what work it entails. And I respect if you want to reach out to somebody else, and I wish you the best of luck. And their response was, No, I'll pay it like, I want to work. You know what I mean? I do, I do think that I really do think that people respect that and will follow suit. And if they don't, it's a it's sort of foreshadowing for what might be to come, potentially. So I it's a fine line, of course. But I think that's the other piece of this, this new way of doing business for me, which is, you know, I try to, I try to be the person that people want to work with. And as a result, I have had the ability to just take the projects with the people that I want to work with. And you don't always know but I think you know, and so when I say be the person people want to work with for me, you know, I it's not ego driven. It's not Oh, I'm the best designer or or, you know, it's it's more about knowing your core competencies, understanding the goals, and then all the important you know, keeping good relationships showing up on time doing what you say you're going To do all of those things, it's remarkable. But apparently that's not industry standard. And so when you follow through with stuff, and and you are the person people want to work with, you end up having more work than you necessarily need or can do. And so I mean, I have the ability to say, you know, I'm sorry, but I don't have time to work on that. And maybe I don't have time to work on it. But maybe I don't want to work with that person, or I don't want to work on that project. And I think, my opinion is that no amount of money is going to make you happy with the work that you're doing. And you can love design all day long. But if you don't have clients, yeah, you're kind of nowhere. So somewhere in the mix of that is, you know, having those good relationships and, and like, showing up. And then you get to work on the things you want to work on. Which is such a blessing.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, oh, my gosh, there's so many things I want to tack on. You just said, I'm like, focus cake. So one of the things that you're alluding to is kind of these core values, and what I'm hearing is integrity. And, you know, showing up knowing your core competencies, doing what you say you're gonna do. I feel like there are a lot of designers who especially they've reached this almost tipping point of, you know, there's the early days of, like, where's my next client gonna come from, and then, you know, you start to build this rapport, and then you start to get more work, and the work keeps rolling in. And then there's this like, moment, and I'm, I'm speaking from experience where, you know, earlier, you were able to maintain your communications and your timeline and your schedule and your, you know, all of the client nurturing that we do. But when you start to get to a point where you've got more work than you know what to do with, and you feel like you're drowning, that we kind of fester in that place for way too long. And what happens is what you just talked about was like, it's when you end up, showing up with half of the work done that you're supposed to have done, or not getting back to people in a timely manner. And, to me, what I teach is like, if you experiences everything, every single touchpoint matters. And if you can give your client a rock solid experience, that is your golden ticket to referral based work and repeat clients. And if you stay in that place for too long, where you're, you're wallowing in work, and you're letting things fall through the crack. All of that is at risk, right, you're at risk for having people, you know, drag your name and your brand through the mud, and you don't want to do that. And, and there is this, like integrity that is appreciated by clients. And I and I see you holding that kind of front and center for yourself, which is no surprise to me. But as you mentioned, turns out it's not industry standard. So
Karlin Vaessen
I mean, apparently I you know, because like I said, I mean, there's always going to be other designers doing amazing work. And, you know, they're it's impossible not to compare yourself and say, I mean, because I struggled with this, like working under, you know, other folks and going well, you know, I don't know if I would have thought to say that in that meeting? Or if I would have come up with that design solution. And at some point, you've got to just go for it. I mean, you have to put yourself out there, you're not going to you're not going to get there for sure. But I think it's super important to just know, your own skill sets. Like it's not about the other folks, right? It's about what do I do? Well, do I present really well to the client? Am I good at putting together boards, bolster yourself where you're not strong? Like, for me, it's tech, Kate experienced this earlier. For you know, I'm not a tech person, and I don't claim to be one, right? I'm still learning like, you know, I came up in the industry, and I knew CAD and I was really good at CAD, but I didn't come up using Revit and like I just taught myself to use Revit and I continue to teach myself to use Robert Right. Like it's a process it's not like all of a sudden I'm great at it but I'm but I'm always learning new things. But anyway, you know, certain things that aren't my skill set and you go okay, how can I basically play to your skill set and get help where you know, you need it, but but don't try to be something you're not because that is transparent, right?
Kate Bendewald
Yes, absolutely. It will and just trying to do everything is just unrealistic. And I know that that's for for young designers is at times just a necessity. And it is important that you learn how to do certain things to a degree, but you don't need to be doing those same things forever. You made a sample earlier and tell me if it's not okay to share this. We don't have to name names, but like, you'll want to do site surveys. You want to go Are you? Can you kind of tell that retell that a little bit in your Oh, yeah.
Karlin Vaessen
Yeah, so I got a call, I like doing like little small retail projects, I, you know, I've done big work. And I've done all the sizes in between, and I love working on these little retail projects that have like funky design, and I got a call to do a project that was, I guess I can say, was an ice cream shop. And I got the sense, you know, they were in a hurry. And they had ideas about the design, but they didn't really know how they were going to execute it. And I think, you know, they wanted to kind of do it their way, which is, you know, understandable. And they wanted this right away. And they wanted the site survey and I was thinking, oh no, how can I do this for them? Can I download a scanning software? And how am I going to do this so that I can help them and be inexpensive? And I'm thinking like, what am I doing, this is not a good use of my time, right? I don't have the software, I don't have the capability, I would like, I would like to just hire a laser scanner and pay whatever the price is do that because it's going to be a better product and I can deliver. And ultimately, I proposed that and they decided against it. And so what that told me was that they probably weren't investing in the project in the way that I felt was necessary to get the best product. And so that was kind of that and that's okay, like they're gonna do their process and their way and what I like to work on it. Yeah, super fun and cool. But like, you know, maybe it'll I find things come around sometimes. Yeah. Unfortunately, sometimes they come around when they're already a mess. And, yeah, case, not in this case. But you know, like, sometimes you get something handed to you like, well, we're behind schedule leases. And we didn't like the last architecture we worked with. So yeah. And it's like, oh, this, this doesn't sound like a positive idea. But But yeah, I mean, I think listening to your gut, right? Yeah. That didn't sound like a good process. To me. It didn't sound like the right use of my time, I proposed a solution I thought was the best and they didn't agree. And that's okay. And
Kate Bendewald
there's a there's an architect slash designer for them that will do it, you know, the way that they want it within their budget. And
Karlin Vaessen
yeah, you know, they could win you. I'm just I know what happens when you wing it. I don't want to wing it anymore. Yeah, I can. But I want to.
Kate Bendewald
I know, I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've been presented with projects that just seemed the product itself. So cool, like such great opportunity, but it's one or the other, right? Whenever I say no to a project, it has to be both the project lights you up, and the people light you up. If one of those things isn't working, it's probably not a good idea. Because when I've had times where a project will come through the door, and it just is like just a juicy project, like oh, my gosh, this would be so fun. But the people there, there's something off there, there's something that's not right. Or, it's, you know, the people are amazing. They were referred to they're so cool, you'd love to work with them. They're there, they're great people with the project just isn't a fit, you know, like, sure I can space plan. But that's, if that's all I'm gonna do. I'm not interested in that. That's called calling kitchen designer to help you lay out right. I want to do the whole thing. Like I'm not going to piecemeal this. So they both have to be in alignment. When you
Karlin Vaessen
I was gonna say a good school of thought on this that I've heard is, if it's not, Hell, yes, then it's no Hell no. Period, like, it's not like, oh, well, I'd like to get this in my portfolio. But the price isn't right. And I don't have enough time to do it. It's like, well, it's probably not going to work out to be a good project to your portfolio. If those all the things aren't in alignment, right? Yeah.
Kate Bendewald
How important is building your portfolio to you right now at this stage of where you are?
Karlin Vaessen
It's not because I've done it, right. It's super important. However, now I have an idea of the types of projects that I like doing. So I mean, I like doing hospitality projects I've been doing hotel renovations actually quite a bit. And renovation seem to be something that have come to me quite a bit. And, you know, it's it's almost the hardest project type because you never know what you're going to find beneath the surface. So it's a bit of an archeological dig. But, but there's some interest in that right. Like there's there's that problem solving and that creativity that come into play. But But yeah, for me, so I'm still building. I think you're always building that side of your practice. When you're in the design industry. It's not like, Oh, I've done enough restaurants. It's like, No, I want to do a ramen restaurant and I want to do a conveyor belt, sushi plate, whatever it is, you know? Yes. Like, if you're really excited about what you do, then there's there's never enough projects. But like I said, sometimes when the recipe isn't right, it's a terrible pun, I guess. The recipe is not right. In terms of, you know, the team and, and the things that we've been talking about, you know, it might be good to take, take a miss on it. But I think I think building your breadth of experience is so important. And for me, I never wanted to specialize in anything, I never wanted to be the hospital architect or the strip mall architect, you know what I mean, I really, I really feel like every kind of design informs the other kind of design. Because you know, the built environment is so integrated, it's not like we only go to hospitals, or we only go to, you know, multi apartment projects, or whatever. And so that's really been my excitement about working in our industry is like being able to do all kinds of different things and letting one project type inform the other and bring like, new ideas, like you were talking about with amenities to public spaces, or to the public spaces with multifamily projects and things like that.
Kate Bendewald
Want to dive into creativity for just a second? Because you, you got me thinking about this? How, what is your point of view on design? Like if somebody walks into a space that you've designed? What does that feel like? If if you were to give it sort of a, an ethos, what is it what space want to be?
Karlin Vaessen
Oh, this is like a, this is interesting, I think, you know, it's, it's timeless, I think it is responsive to the needs of the client and the operation of the space. Right? It's purpose driven design. It's not, it's not I want to put this light somewhere. So I'm gonna put this right. I mean, I think all the pieces have to work together and the building has to work. It's it's not always about how it looks, it has to work. So timeless, purpose driven. I don't know. I mean, I think I think when you're creative, you can do all kinds of different styles. So wouldn't like get stuck on a style, but I think it's, you know, I think it's gotta be fun in some way or another. It's got to be fun. It's got to have like, a quirky detail, because that's kind of me, I am a quirky detail. I am the embodiment. But yeah, it's got to be timeless, it has to work. And it's, you know, it's smart. And it's probably simple. You know, I think the best design is not overwrought.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, I love that I was just interviewing another friend of mine, who is an interior designer. And I love hearing people's point of views on design, because even though, like just hearing you and her there's some similarities, but also differences, and I think it's it's so important that designers are, you know, really start to think about their point of view on design early, and know that it will evolve. I know, for me early on, you know, I was struggling with this idea of like, do I want to be this designer that's known for a particular look, right? Or do I want to be known for somebody that can flex you know, and one of my very first projects was this mid century modern home, which was definitely a project I took out of a necessity for experience. But you know, soon as I put that, on my website, I started getting all these calls from people who had minsitry modern homes. And while I have an appreciation for that era, I didn't want to be the mid century modern designer, I, I was like, I want to be known for, like, use of color and texture and pattern. And in and I do like more layered spaces. I like old spaces, I like history. And so I had to be very intentional about sort of pivoting that story and my brand, but it's funny how you can, you can very quickly get sort of known to be one thing, and that can be known for your discount. You got to take these opportunities very carefully and thoughtfully and think long term how they can sort of impact you. You know, and if you're gonna spend a year on a, if you're a young designer, and you're going to spend a year two or three on a project that you can't put in your portfolio because it's not something you're you relate to or you want to be known for. Why would you spend the time on that project? I think
Karlin Vaessen
just to be clear, I don't consider hear myself young? You know, I've been working in this industry for 25 years, you look
Kate Bendewald
like you're 25 just kind of, uh, you know, those jeans?
Karlin Vaessen
But, um, but yeah, I think even as, even as a, as somebody with a portfolio or somebody that's changed careers, for instance, you know, it's like, you kind of have to shift how you look at things and go, you know, why am I doing it this way? Right? What do I want to be doing this? And I think, you know, to respond to what you said, it's like, those are the pitfalls of doing a good job, right? Like, you might become the sought after mid century designer, even if you don't want to be, but like, I would consider that a win, because you obviously did a great job. And so like I said, you know, the referrals and the and the calls that come in, that aren't related to marketing. It's kind of like, validation, right? On the best on the best level.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, well, I've, I stand, and I stand strongly, and I will die on the Hill of give your give your clients a good experience, make it easy for them and, and also do good work. But that does, yeah, and
Karlin Vaessen
I think there's an education component, right, I think like, people watch HGTV, and think they know what design is. And they don't know how you do what you do, or why you're doing it. They don't know how you come up with the idea or how you put the things together. And so some of that is like, making them feel like they're part of the process, right. And they're integrated into the process. So you've got that buy in. But but in order to get there, you have to convince them that it's worth going on that ride with you. I think that's a that's a big, that's a big thing. And then you can pick the styles that you want to do and the right.
Kate Bendewald
And hopefully, that's, hopefully that's a short walk for you that he's like, you know, what, you don't want to have to drag anybody through the mud to do that. But but definitely I I appreciate that reminder that there is a good amount of educating that is involved in the work that we do. And yeah, and that goes back to process and sticking to your process. I want to I want to wrap up with a couple of last questions. Going back to just like lifestyle and work work, life balance is trite is that phrase is your your mom, right? Your business owner, you're married to a wonderful, wonderful husband, we love him to
Karlin Vaessen
my tech advisor.
Kate Bendewald
He gets he gets to tag along to you to occasional happy hours with us. What has this process of starting your own business and being really picky about the products you take and the people that you work with? done for you in terms of just making space for the things that are important besides your career? Um,
Karlin Vaessen
well, I'm I'm really empowered, right, like, it's, it's 100%, my, my choice, my work my path. So I mean, I think it's hard not to feel completely invested and completely satisfied when you have ultimate flexibility. And you have ultimate agency with the direction of your career, right. So now, I mean, my goal, to be frank was to work a little bit less and to, but to still work and to still do the projects. I was. Yeah, I mean, I, I felt like I was hustling. I mean, my whole career, I've been hustling. And I wanted to hustle less. But do it in a smarter way. So that, you know, my income didn't change. My experience of my impact on the built environment didn't change. But I also can put my child to bed and I can be on the board of a school. And you know, if he stays home sick, I can be with him. I took him skiing the other day. And I sat in the lodge and did a conference call with 10 people from city of Denver zoning department. So as long as you I mean, if you are ultimately invested you find a way to do those things. Am I balancing things right? I don't know. Probably not. You know, probably not the best but am I doing it? Yeah. And I I'm so like, I'm I'm really happy with what I've done. And this may not be the end for me. This may not be the final chapter, right? Maybe I'll decide I want to go work at a firm like I can't imagine it right now. But for me right now it's it's it's like wonderful. I love I love working from home. I love having all that flexibility and I still get to do these, you know? I'm like, my mind is boggled. When people call and say oh, you know, like we're doing this big project. Do you want to work on it? And I am almost up I don't like well, it's just me. And I'm, you know, I have helped, but this is what I'm doing right now. And they're like, Yeah, whatever. When do you want to start? Right? Yeah, I feel really lucky. And I feel like, you know, you hustle to get established and to get your portfolio and then, you know, you're allowed to, I mean, that at least that's been my path. And then you're allowed the flexibility to sort of do the and I had children later in life. So a child. So, you know, it's worked out really great for me, because now I have the resources to sort of like, spend more time doing things and, and and be, right, I don't have to take every job. I don't have to work morning, noon and night. Oh, you know, all the things. Although there's nothing wrong with that. And that's probably a great way to be successful. Just for me right now is smart to take a step back, ya know, and forward at the same time.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, I was gonna say I don't depends on how you're looking at it taking a step back to take a step forward. That might be the name of this episode. Right? Gosh, I love it. Well, I think
Karlin Vaessen
learning the hard way. I mean, because all of these little nuggets are as a result of, of not, not listening to my gut, not sticking with my skill set, not trusting, you know, my instinct. And when I put myself out there that I would do, or, you know, do the thing the right way. And so I always learned from experience. And well, I think I'm in a good place.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, I think I think everything I'm hearing right now is so important to help designers future pace their themselves and to kind of know that, you know, there's gonna be seasons where you're, you're, you know, you're going to need to work really hard, and it's going to feel hard, but it definitely shouldn't be that way forever. And if it is, there's something wrong, that there that there's you know, value and having a little bit of grit, you know, failing forward figuring things out the hard way. I think normalizing that from somebody who is as experienced as you are, is really refreshing. And so I, I appreciate it. Speaking of work life balance, you have a spin class to get to, I want to make sure you get there. So can I give you some three rapid fire questions, and I purposely did not send these to you in advance. Okay. I love you for this. In one word, good design is simple. Love it.
Kate Bendewald
One book that has changed my life is
Karlin Vaessen
Oh, I really love the goldfinch. But I can't say for any particular reason.
Kate Bendewald
I have not read that. I will put it on my list. Yeah, Nick, you're all so awesome. Love it. The one thing I'm most looking forward to right now
Karlin Vaessen
I think going on spring break with my family.
Kate Bendewald
Where are you guys gonna go?
Karlin Vaessen
We're gonna go to Palm Springs, and I've never been there. Oh, my gosh,
Kate Bendewald
yes. You told me about this. Sounds fabulous. Well, I was gonna guess moving into your new home because you guys are building your labor of love building your own custom home, which sounds like so much fun and so much work, especially during the challenges we've had with the building industry this last couple of years. But separate
Karlin Vaessen
therapy session. Yeah.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, Karlin, I just want to say thank you so much. You've been a delight to hang out with today. I appreciate it. I love it. Where can people find you online if they want to learn?
Karlin Vaessen
So my company's called Merritt born born.com. Yeah, we're still working on getting all that up and running. But stay tuned for more. And thank you for having me. It's just such an it's always a delight to talk with you.
Kate Bendewald
Awesome. Sounds good. Well tell the family I said hi. I love you. And we'll talk soon.
Kate Bendewald
Thank you so much for letting me spend part of this day with you. If you're loving this podcast, please share it with a friend who you think might also love it. Or perhaps you can take just 30 seconds to open your podcast app and leave us a five star rating. And if you have just an extra minute, go ahead and leave a review. This helps me so much and it helps other designers like you to find the podcast. It also adds fuel to my motivation to keep making great episodes just for you. However you choose to help, please No, I appreciate you so very much. Thank you, my friend. Have a wonderful rest of your day and I'll see you next time.
