EP #37 | Working with an Interior Photographer with Jeff Jones
Welcome to the Designers Oasis podcast. I'm your host, Kate Bendewald, interior designer, mama and CEO of a thriving interior design business, built on authentic word of mouth referrals. It wasn't that long ago that I stepped away from my corporate architecture job to build my own dream, one that would allow me more time with the people that I love, the ability to serve my clients at the highest level, and to make a great living. It wasn't always easy, and I've made my share of mistakes along the way. Fast forward to today, and I've learned a thing or two. This podcast is for you - the inspired, creative, ambitious, and let's admit it, occasionally overwhelmed interior designer who shares this dream of transforming lives by transforming homes. Join me and my guests each week as we walk through practical ways to build an interior design business you love, and helps you transform your clients' lives. You can do this.
Kate Bendewald
I am so excited to be sitting down with my friend and interior photographer Jeff Jones. I met Jeff when I was living in Texas and I've had the privilege of having him shoot several projects. For me. Jeff is passionate about interior design and interior designers. We also connect on the fact that we're both in Enneagram. Seven and how that impacts the way we experience spaces. Today, he opens up about talking when it's he opens up talking about what it's like working with high profile designers like Mark Sykes and Joanna Gaines. We also talk about the specific differences between an interior photographer and how they work differently than the many other types of photographers you can think about architectural photographers, real estate photographers lifestyle photographers. But interior photographers have sort of a unique point of view. And so we talk about that. And finally, we get into the kinds of questions that you might ask a photographer when you're considering hiring them for your work. What I love about this episode is that we not only get into the technical details, but we also touch on more ethereal topics like capturing the story behind a project. So Jeff is such a kind and gentle soul, his passion for these topics. The subject matter is palpable. I know without a doubt that you will find today's episode both educational and inspiring. Please welcome my friend Jeff Jones. Hi, Jeff, welcome. How are you today?
Kate Bendewald
Good. How are you?
Kate Bendewald
Oh my gosh, I am so thrilled to be chatting with you today. So today I'm welcoming my friend Jeff Jones of Jeff Jones photo. He is an interior design photographer. And I'm so thrilled to have you it's I woke up this morning was like I get to hang out with a friend have a coffee and record our conversation. How fun is that?
Kate Bendewald
That's the life it's
Kate Bendewald
going to. I feel I feel really fortunate. I appreciate you Jeff this morning. I was just for, for our listeners I am human. I was in the groove of working on something and I lost track of time and my my dear friend Jeff was so gracious to still hop on and record a conversation with me today. So I'm really grateful to have you. So Jeff has photographed for me for a number of years on a couple of projects. And I just only wish I had found you sooner. So Jeff, you're based out of Waco, Texas. That's right.
Jeff Jones
Yeah. Central Texas, Austin, Dallas.
Kate Bendewald
You do you do? All of Texas and beyond and beyond? Yes.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's, there's no shortage of work in that area. That's for sure. So, last, what was that? When did we last each other? No. So yeah, sometime like I flew back to photograph a project that we had finally wrapped up. That was the that was one of the longest projects I've ever worked on through COVID And yeah, cool projects. The project had the the pipes froze during that famous freeze last year of 2022. Despite these precautions, scenario measurements which set us back quite a bit, but they had just installed brand new cabinetry anyway. So it was time to photograph it and was so good to get to work with you again. And I remember hanging out with you, Melissa at the table and having lunch. And we got to talking about just like the the relationship between photographers and interior designers. And that inspired me, I asked you on the spot, I was like, Hey, I wish I'd had a record or write that in there. Because we had such an awesome conversation over lunch, we talked about all the things we talked about both of us, we learned that we're both Enneagram sevens, which I love about you. So I said, Can I have you back? Can we have a similar conversation, but let's turn the recording on and have this. So thanks. Thanks for joining me.
Jeff Jones
Well, thanks for having me, Kate, I I love shooting your work because you are just a huge personality in the best way possible. And it comes through your design. And I love I love seeing how you listen to your clients. But you also still have your voice in the design itself. And it does communicate and I love capturing that. So thanks for having me on here. And thanks for thanks for letting me be an expert to something that may help some people. So I'm excited to share that. Oh,
Kate Bendewald
Jeff, thank you so much. Those are those are really kind words. And you know, it's funny I That's how I feel about design, you know, is wanting to capture their vision, but also objects some of your art often too. Sometimes I don't know if that comes through, but apparently to folks like totally does. Yeah. Well, and that's that could be a whole conversation because one question that designers often have, especially younger designers, or, you know, how do you straddle that line between wanting to have like, a look that you're known for, and also doing what the client wants it needs? And and I think that's such an evolution. But in any case, I feel like I've finally gotten to a place that strikes a nice balance. And that feels good. So
Jeff Jones
yeah, well, how I see it come through is through your color choices. You're great with color. And I see that happen in all different spectrums of the colors that you use, but you make you can make it fun, but you can also make it playful and sensitive is your use of colors. Amazing. So
Kate Bendewald
oh my gosh, well, thank you. Thank you so much. That's that's kind. So take me back to like, Baby, Jeff photographer. I want to hear, um, I want you to share a little bit about your journey into photography, specifically interior design photography, like where did this start? So I
Jeff Jones
went to Baylor University, here in Waco, and I started off as a graphic designer. I got my BFA actually in graphic design at Baylor. And you have to take a certain amount of hours in a different medium. And I chose photography because it felt like a good complement to graphic design. Through the process of doing graphic design. I just realized I hated it. It's not like a thing I enjoy, but I was so far in that I just had to commit and because I was overloaded I overcommitted as an Enneagram. Seven, seven over committed with like all people. Yeah, I so one of my photography classes. Well, this happened twice. So one of my photography classes, my professor, it was a film class. And she basically told me, I was lazy. And I was over committed. And basically said, I have a lot of talent, and I'm wasting it. And so I was kind of first offended because I'm like, I'm lazy. But but then I realized how maybe maybe she is saying something. And then it was I think it was my last semester, finishing up at Baylor. One of my advisors was a photo photographer as well. And she was like, Why did you have majored in photography. And again, I could have had like two other I think I just needed two other classes to complete in order to like make that my major. And so I just kind of listened to that. It was just kind of like, okay, maybe people see something I don't see. And maybe that's just something to trust and risk on and so, of course did all different kinds of photography. It's in the process of discovering what I truly enjoy and what I don't enjoy. Because you can do so many different things and never realized like how you can make money doing photography it was just kind of is a skill I learned and so how do I serve people with it? And then I got hired on for at Magnolia as their in House photographer magnolia market here. in Waco, and then basically helped build that photography department there was it didn't it didn't exist. And I did all kinds of photography that was kind of I would say, like my internship of figuring out what I enjoyed. And everything from like product is product photography, for the website shooting for the Magnolia journal, shooting for HGTV shooting for their blog, right before fixer upper would air all the houses. And after having that like buffet of options and trying things out, I love shooting the houses. They just first off Joanna did an amazing job of course, but I think I just love I've always been drawn to architecture have always been drawn to interior spaces. I as a seven, you know, you walk into a room and you feel things immediately. And you're just like, What,
Kate Bendewald
is that a seven thing that?
Jeff Jones
Oh, yeah. Oh my goodness. Yeah, like you. I've heard like Enneagram sevens or like thermometers or thermostats. Like they walk into the room, and they can just feel everything in the room. They just have this fixed sense. And I think that's kind of I got addicted to that feeling of just like walking into a room and being like, Oh, wow, this this feels good. Like this is a call it functional a call, whatever. But I just love the feeling of walking into a room and feeling inspired or feeling that rest or feeling calm or feeling energized like this. You just we I think because as sevens, we, you know our energy, we were not quick to feel. And so when something helps us make us feel it's like almost like therapeutic for us. That's how music is for me. It's like
Kate Bendewald
I'm really gonna have to dig into this a little bit more. And I don't know why I didn't Intuit this earlier, that that there's a relationship between being Enneagram seven and being Swiss. Oh, yeah, surroundings, but I am. So I'm so sensitive to my surroundings, which is why traveling with me as hard because I don't want to stay in a shitty Hotel.
Jeff Jones
Yeah. Well, I'm curious for you, like, do you feel like you get in your head too much or you like, think too much. But then when you walk into a room or you find something that's very emotive, it, like, stops you in your tracks, you're just kind of like, you're like, I don't because I don't operate in emotions. Normally, I'm always thinking, and then when something helps me feel, I'm like, Well, okay, I gotta just like, Play that song 25 times, or I need the need to, like, go to that space every morning and have coffee at that coffee shop. Because, you know, you just you just get addicted to it. I don't know how.
Kate Bendewald
Oh my guys, I am, like, scratch the plans for what we're gonna talk about. I think we're just gonna have to come back. I would love to have it Enneagram expert. Oh, my goodness. Absolutely. I could talk about it all day long. Okay. So so you had so you got addicted to this idea of shooting spaces, because you were emotionally drawn to them in a way that yeah, other things didn't emerge.
Jeff Jones
Yeah, that's a great, yeah, sorry, we got off track. But I'm always, I'm also always big pictures, I need to like, come back to the eye. So yeah, so shooting all those things, loves working for Magnolia. But I just felt like it was time to, you know, freelance, and just start specializing, kind of built a portfolio of what I wanted, which was very, I was very grateful for chip and Joe were very time for letting me do that. But I started working for me and anyone and everyone that would take me for interior. So I did home polish. I don't know if you remember home polish, it was like it was big on Instagram, I don't think no longer like an online designer by the hour type situation. And they had their like, five year anniversary down in Austin. And they had me scheduled for a couple of shoots. And then I had a dear friend that worked for them. So they that's how I got that connection. And then went down to Austin for this five year anniversary dinner and met all these different designers. But one who's a dear friend of mine, his name's Taylor Murphy. He just kind of connected me through other designers in Austin and it just started becoming this thing that Oh, wow, I can actually do this. This is like a career and a need and then I enjoy it. So if we can both, you know if I can offer this service and I can enjoy it and someone else enjoys it, maybe this is a good fit. And then it's just led to me Many other designers reaching out and just word of mouth in that regard, so yeah, that's kind of how it all transpired. Let's
Kate Bendewald
talk about let's fine tune this a little bit. When you say it's worked out, you have worked with some really high profile designers. So it's really, really worked out for you. So I think you're, you're being a bit humble. So what what is it been like working with some high profile designers? And can you just kind of share what that experience has been like for you?
Jeff Jones
Yeah, I it feels like paver. And like, I eat maybe may well, like for example, I'm, I'm assuming you're wanting me to talk about shooting for Mark Sykes, and that that connection Mark has mainly works with Amy is a photographer based out of LA. And they are dear friends. He the way he talks about her is out of so much respect. And then she it was it was I mean, just ironic and probably the right place at the right time. But he was doing a house for friend in Waco that he went to college with Mark actually went to Baylor, I think for his first semester or maybe his first year and has a dear friend Sarah Ainsworth to basically has a house and Castle heights, which is just more probably the older established part of Waco.
Kate Bendewald
Yes. Beautiful, beautiful.
Jeff Jones
And Amy couldn't shoot coincidentally,
Kate Bendewald
which is the name of his first book. And then subsequent book is called more beautiful. So
Jeff Jones
yeah, absolutely. And he Amy couldn't shoot the weekend of after all the installs. And Amy reached out to Magnolia and they gave me my my number. And so that was just kind of a coincidence or just right place at the right time. And I was so nervous working for Mark. He's extremely talented, and so kind and he styles everything he's hands on he he was on business cards while he was style. He's just fully hands on. He's the real deal. And just like a genius with design and texts, textures, and just the juxtaposition of fabrics and all the things and so any is so much layering to his styling that I love. I just love shooting that. So it was such a great experience. And then he had me shoot for a couple of others. So and then, you know, Joe working for Magnolia and still doing some of that. But But yeah, it's it's been a huge blessing and just feels like the right place at the right time and being willing to serve and show up and do what I need to do. So
Kate Bendewald
oh my gosh, well, the work is beautiful. And it. It has taken both the talented designers and your vision to see that through. So well. Let's get it I want to get in just kind of some logistic question. Yeah, around working with design, excuse me working with a photographer as from a designer's perspective, kind of the business side of that. So we're gonna go through kind of some rapid fire questions because I know a lot I want to get through and I want to be respectful of your time, especially because I was late, so Oh, don't worry about it. Okay, so there is we've talked about this a little bit at the top. There's so many different kinds of designers, excuse me photographers, there's real estate photographers, there's portrait photographers of landscape photographers, there's architecture photographers, there's interior design photographers. What sets an interior design photographer apart? And what what makes you guys different?
Jeff Jones
That is a great question. And I was actually at a workshop for shooting interiors up in Dallas a month ago, and this was a conversation that there is a new landscape of photographers that are basically coining themselves as interior photographers. I think it was mainly like either you had architectural photographers or real estate photographers, and the architecture side would probably fit into that interior landscape. But I feel like people are now in and I'm choosing to do that too. I'm choosing to go more design focus, which just means a myriad of different things. But I would say you can either work with an architectural photographer or an interior design photographer. I definitely, depending on the budget for the designer, real estate would definitely be the cheapest option. You might just get really wide images, maybe some fisheye some bowing around the image itself, which is If that's just where you're at in your business, and that's what you can afford, maybe that can really serve you well. And maybe you just need to be more hands on with that photographer and making sure that they're getting certain shots. So you might want to like prepare for a shot list within that, I mean, you're going to prepare a shot list with everyone, but, but I would say interior photographers aren't really thinking unless the designer was involved with the structural aspects of the room and the building. And like, finish out stains. I would say the design, interior design photographers looking what the designer did, and how do they promote that, because that's what you're going to be showing other clients. So like, you're thinking through the fabric you picked out for the sofa, you're thinking through the rug, you're thinking to the paint colors, you're making sure that those colors are accurate. When you're in posts. Like things like that. It's more of like what the designer wants to highlight, I would say an architectural photographer probably won't think through those details, but will think big picture. And sometimes those images are beautiful, and really does the job. But I think designers are wanting to truly showcase their work and like what they did. And if it requires a white solid, say more tighter images. They're more thinking about like the furniture, the wallpaper, the paint, the flooring, they're just like they're more aware of those things, then I would probably say, the architectural photographer would be because architects will mainly hire architectural photographers, and designers will mainly just hire interior designer photographers.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, I love so it sounds like what you're clarifying is really focusing on the the actual specific work of the designer and highlighting that and bringing it to the forefront, which might mean tighter images, focusing on color texture pattern, that color accuracy part is so so important. You have that in spades. Every time I get photography back from you, it feels so true. The color feels so true. I've worked with, you know, other photographers who have also done a great job. But I've often had to send photography back and say, this is over color corrected or oversaturated. And it doesn't feel true. Can Can we adjust this and they've been able to do that, especially if I give them the specific paint colors or texture. Yeah, whatever it is, yeah. But that color, that truth color, to me is really important. And it sounds like you you really understand that.
Kate Bendewald
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Kate Bendewald
there's something else that you've talked about with me before and I want to bring this app because it relates to what you're talking about. You know, whenever I am talking with my designers, I say my designers my they they feel like my friends inside the designers always says community inside the membership. One of the things that we talk about is the role of looking at the home through the lifestyle lens. So you know where the contractor or architect, other trades people, they're going to be concerned with other aspects of a project. We're really Looking at it at a home or space, whether it's a business or home through a lifestyle lens. So how do we interact with our space? How do we move about it? How does what does it bring up for us emotionally? How do we want other people to feel when they come into home? So you've actually talked about getting the story, and I'm using air quotes here. And getting the story in photography is really important to you. And that I think that comes through, especially if you guys, I'll link to his Instagram, in the show notes, but you can really see that emotion through your photography. So talk about what it means to get the story and and how do you go about doing that?
Jeff Jones
Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think intuitively, I'm trying to add more systems at play when I'm working with a designer in a project at large, just trying to figure out the story in general, like, what, what was the overall inspiration? What was the Muse behind creating the space the way you created it, trying to figure out what was trying to be accomplished by the client and the designer together? If that is lifestyle, if it is an emotion, if it is practicality, like what what are the things that were the goal set on the front end? And then figuring out what are the things that got in the way of that goal? What did it get in the way of that goal? And like, what are the things that we're really trying to highlight? And I think that's it comes down to when when you create the story, that's where the emotion comes through, through your work. And I often have a hard time and I don't know if you feel this way, but the when you're in this type of work, you can be pretty superficial. Like, you know, you're spending a lot of money on things it's like, but the heart behind why those things, those decisions were made often get lost. And I think I think that there's always an intention behind the choices you made with your clients. And so I'm thinking, when I'm working for a designer, what is that? And that's brand, right? Like, that's basically that's like your brand, and that's what you're wanting to put out into the world. So people are attracted to that or not attracted to that, you know, it's,
Kate Bendewald
it's just you've said both of those things.
Jeff Jones
Yeah, yeah. Because everyone needs to stay in their lane just to do what they do. But so I think that's, that's where I found to have ended up having consistent clients because they, they feel that and they, they, I also I feel like a designer, by the time they're getting to the photoshoot, they, they've been through a battle zone of working with contractors, in tears, literally, dealing with scheduling with clients, you know, the ups and downs of communication. Like, there's just so many things that transpired until you get to the photoshoot. And oftentimes, I feel like the designer is just like, hey, just like, shoot this. Like, they're just like, can you just like that, and they're like, styling, and they're exhausted, and they're just like, in photoshoots are exhausting. So it's like, they're
Kate Bendewald
three in the last two months and so exhausted? No. Next one still summer?
Jeff Jones
No, it is it is so much works, I think, for me to come in and actually ask some questions and, and make the designer fall in love again, with the project versus not seeing all the complicated things that were wrong with it. I love seeing that come alive. And the designer and the encouragement, they feel like well, I am good. Like, I feel like I know what I'm doing. Like, I think the story is just it does so much it helps with the brand helps with morale, it helps with even just, you know, of course, capturing what you just spent maybe a year on six months on, you know, and it's it's kind of the culmination of it all. And just like yep, wrap the bow around it and get so the stories, everything I feel like,
Kate Bendewald
yeah, oh my gosh, I'm getting goosebumps because I'm thinking back to that project that we shot. And it was, and I have to give a ton of credit to Melissa Rowland, who was the lead designer on that. And she did an amazing, amazing job. And she called those clients hands through so much crap and clients and selves were so gracious. But it really did feel like a sense of relief having the photography done, and it wasn't, I think, also getting those shots. Just trying to think of the right words, but there is The feeling of just like it brings you back to the original initial conversations. And it's always nice to be able to, to reflect back and think think about that and know that, you know, your clients have something that they are going to enjoy for decades to come. So Right. Right, and being entrusted with that, as a designer is a huge responsibility. So, but yeah, so So this kind of ties into one of my other questions is, there are many reasons why a designer would want photographs for their business, the most obvious one is for their portfolio, right? We want to photograph our best work and showcase it, because it shows our skill sets and how we can help transform spaces. But also, the intention might be for press, it might be specifically for social media. How important is it that a designer identifies their end goals prior to photoshoot?
Jeff Jones
Yeah, I think that it's very intentional for the designer to think through their goals prior to the shoot, because it's a big investment. And I think if you're truly hiring someone that knows what they're doing, you're going to have to pay a good price for it. And knowing your goals, even like let's say, to go back to the story conversation, like knowing the story, it really does come down to like knowing your goals on the front end, because you might want to use that story for press and presses. That's what they're looking for. They're looking for a story. So knowing the story on the front end helps you shoot in a way that you can think through page layouts. So if that's something so some questions, a lot of designers that they can't fly me out, because budget or whatever they're like, What should I be asking? And I was like, well maybe ask if someone tethers and that they use Capture One because they can create, you know, page layouts in a way that, you know, you're getting the shot that would fit a page and like in for certain page layouts, there's many different kinds you can use. Oh,
Kate Bendewald
my gosh, you know what, my next question is gonna be right.
Jeff Jones
Yes, yeah. So I think I think yeah, like, what, what else to ask? I think knowing your goal for that press is really great. It's great for getting your name out there. But if you don't have the story, then maybe a lot of press, people won't look at it. And a lot of people use like before and afters as like the story but I feel like there's there's always deeper meaning to to it than just the before and after, you know, like what, what is the deeper story? So knowing your goals is key for that, knowing your goals for what you need. So if it is just portfolio, then that you know, and budget, that's things to think through knowing the story for press. And I tried to take with another goal.
Kate Bendewald
Social media,
Jeff Jones
social media. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, social media, like maybe thinking through stories, and reels and posts and just kind of what you're wanting to utilize that for, and maybe even talking to the photographer as well, like, how do you handle press, how to enact can be questioned? Yeah, let's
Kate Bendewald
get it. Let's get into that. Because in this, and then we'll wrap it up. But, and I just want to pause for those designers who are listening. If you've ever heard me talk about the deep dive interview that happens at the outset of a project, it's that initial once, it's the very first step in kicking off any project. So after you've done a consultation, you've gotten your retainer in your contract and date and you're ready to go. The Deep Dive interview is this. I like to treat it as like a dinner date or a coffee date with your clients. And it's it's where in the consultation, you get the opportunity to understand the scope of the project and the overall goals in terms of budget and functionality and vibe and feel and all of that. So you're more focused on the project and the the space itself. The Deep Dive interview is focusing on the people that are going to either inhabit this or if it's a business, what are their goals. And so that is where you start to get the story. And if you're skipping that step, not only are you missing the opportunity for incredible inspiration for your project, but it's going to the project itself can fall flat and then you'll circle back around to that whole story throughout the project, but especially there at the end, so don't miss that opportunity to capture the story. Okay, cool. Let's say that you have researched you have found a couple of possible options for photographers that you want to work with. I think it's important to design that designers invest the most that they can, especially when you're just getting started to build that portfolio. It's going to pay dividends in the long run. And if you find somebody that you like to work with, it can be a really long term relationship and somebody that can grow with you and that you it's a symbiotic relationship. So there are some specific questions that I think are important to ask a photographer when you're deciding if this is the right person that you want to work with. So let's talk about what some of those questions are. Jeff, what? What questions if you heard these from a designer would thrill you to hear
Jeff Jones
the questions that if a designer asked me, I would know that they feel educated in the process? Because I do think it is an education for designers to learn that you should ask do you use a tripod for stock? That's like, I mean, for like, 101, interior photography, can I have a tripod, have to have a tripod? Do you tether which is really key on the designers in because they, you don't want someone just go in and taking photos and you don't see anything that they did. And you don't want to look behind like a little time
Kate Bendewald
so tethering is means that they've got their camera on a tripod, but then there's either wirelessly or wired or there's a computer or laptop available or an iPad, where the designer, you can look and see the composition, and you can tweak it until you get it just right.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, yeah.
Jeff Jones
So I would say ask if they'd rather ask they use a tripod, and ask if they use flash, and how do they use flash? There are interior photographers that just shoot all natural light, which, so there's three types, natural light, one that shoots flash, and one that mixes both. So those are kind of questions you should ask.
Kate Bendewald
And you should primarily natural light, but you do.
Jeff Jones
But I'm about I'm about to bring
Kate Bendewald
in the flash to supplement light. And I saw that in in this last shoot because there were some, like we have these built in bunk beds in the boy's room, and I noticed that it was real dark in the back corner. And you were able to shoot a light up there that helped bounce light back. And like seeing the difference. I was like, Oh my gosh, it looks so much. This is why your cell phone photos look like crap. People don't rely on your cell phone. Use a little bit of both. That's your college, which I think is great. Yeah. What else should we be asking?
Jeff Jones
And I think asking what their post production process looks like is kind of if you ever hear the word ah, HDR, just like runaway don't does that mean? It's what real estate photographers use? There's like a built in software into like Photoshop that just combines many exposures and creates that really everything's in high detail and very, very, contrast it. So you don't want you don't want someone that does that. And I would probably say to go back to the Tethering and, and tripod. Ask how many exposures do you take for one image? And B, an
Kate Bendewald
answer that you'd be looking for,
Jeff Jones
you know, everyone everyone does, has their way of shooting, and it's very different. But I would say you want someone that's going to sit in the post production? Do you want to add like, are you layering these images in manually? Not? Not with an HDR? Like preset? Basically? Yeah.
Kate Bendewald
So for designer speak, I'm going to translate real quick. Yeah. And so what he I had to learn this to basically what he's saying is that the cameras on the tripod, and he'll shoot that they'll shoot the same image with different levels of exposure, meaning the aperture is open for a longer period of time or closed. Right. My
Jeff Jones
shutter Yeah, the shutter. ISO but yeah, but
Kate Bendewald
so anyway, you're taking a mixture of the high, low and medium and you're blending them artistically in a way that puts the highlights where you want it and the low lights where you want. And yeah, it's very much an artistic approach that post production and putting it together in a in a very intentional way. Not with some sort of an automation. Am I getting it?
Jeff Jones
Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. And I think that approach is a more editorial way of shooting. It's just it's a slower process it actually requires so the tethering piece really helps the designer actually have eyes on the image itself and helps with the styling or if you hire a stylist which I recommend every designer hire stylists because it's easier to say yes or no versus like moving back and forth and moving all these things around so worth worth the money and actually always helps the images look better. But the that that tethering piece and then seeing all those exposures in Even having the ability to manipulate an image. If they know how to do that, and post, then you can feel pretty confident that they know kind of what they're doing. Yeah. When it comes to the layering of the images, and I
Kate Bendewald
think the specificity of what you just said is going to be hugely helpful for designers who are really ready to level up their photography game. I want to ask you, did I cut you off? I feel like you were gonna say. I want to say I want to ask you one other specific questions. So that's all kind of related to the technical aspect of photography. Let's talk about the legal aspect. Real quick before we wrap up. Can you educate us in a couple of minutes just about the the the legal rights to photography? And what kind of questions a designer might need not know to ask and might need to ask and not something you'd want to learn after the fact? That that is?
Jeff Jones
That's a great question. Because it's all in the contract. If they send you a contract, if they didn't send you a contract, and you didn't sign anything, you should be good to go with using it however, you want to talk to your lawyer. But I'm pretty sure like if there's no contract, and there's nothing to really
Kate Bendewald
work with put you at risk of them using your photos for
Jeff Jones
it was my job to send them a contract and so. So the things to be looking for when you're seeing the photographer's contract is is there any terms to the licensing agreement? It what is the licensing agreement, how I work is the photographer, as a photographer, if I shoot for you, Kate, you get the images, you can do whatever you want with them. For as that's how I just choose to do it with my designers, if it's more of a product based business or service that I do put a lease agreement to those images. So that for example, the designer will have it for life, they can use it however they want. But if I'm shooting for a business, I will put like, in the next two years, this lease will be void, or this licensing agreement will be voided and you have to repurchase. And so that's something you want to think through is licensing agreements. That should be that's the title, like there
Kate Bendewald
are some photographers that they'll shoot for you. And you can use those images for your portfolio. But if it were to get press, there are additional fees associated with it. And so yeah, it'd be a question that you'd want to find out.
Jeff Jones
So yeah, the thing you want to look for is third party, what is their third party? Basically, the agreement when a third party gets involved? How does the end that's normally it could be found in the contract, or that might be a separate contract that states different things, but you agree to agreeing to a third party addendum in the contract. So just like asking, the question I have to ask is, what is your process with adding a third party when a third party gets involved with that's press? If that's a contractor that wants to purchase the images? If that was the wallpaper guy that wants to purchase the images? What how do you go about that, and because if the photographer owns the rights, they sell those images to other people that are involved.
Kate Bendewald
And I just want to say I learned I learned this the hard way, one of my early experiences before I, you know, understood the importance of working with a professional interiors photographer, I hired this this guy who did it, he did a great job taking sort of that lifestyle type photography. But very unprofessional, you know, and he was just getting started too. So it was probably okay for what it was at the time. But what I later learned was he was going to my clients behind my back and getting them to sign a release that allowed him to submit those photos for basically stock imagery websites. Meaning legally, an interior designer could purchase that photograph and put it on there. Not that they would but they could put that on your website, and there's been no recourse for me. So not only was it unethical to do that, in my opinion behind my back, but also the intent his intentions were very self motivated.
Jeff Jones
Did he have a contract with and
Kate Bendewald
I had no contract with him. Yeah, okay. Okay. He got these folks to sign my clients. When I learned about it. I was like, what? Yeah, yeah. And then friend, one of my clients actually the way I learned about it was one of my clients was a an in a stationery designer, and he photographed for her and he did the same thing. And he and that's what she was like, you absolutely can't use these for blah, blah, blah. And so the she she called me she's like, do you know about this? And so it was his business model, but he wasn't being ethical, he wasn't talking about it. So, you know, it just things you don't know until you learn about him. And so I think there's so much more that we can talk about, I feel like we've just scratched the surface. So we're gonna have to be back. And but I think everything we talked about today is going to be so beneficial for designers that are just getting started as well as seasoned designers. Because you can kind of know that, you know, maybe you can't afford your Jeff Jones today. But if that's your goal, making sure that a you're building in your profits at the beginning of your project so that you can afford the absolute best photography that you can, because it's going to put you in the best light, right, and it's going to provide you so many more opportunities. I think it's some of the best money spent by far and I would never advise that you skimp on it. If you can spend the most money that you absolutely can within reason for where you are today.
Jeff Jones
I would say another couple things just for designers to be aware through the process of talking to people. When you shoot that editorial process, it means lesser images. And so I think also asking within the contract, how many images? Normally the interior design photographers have half day rates or full day rates? Because it takes about half day or full day, if not multiple days to shoot a space and asking how much is it? How many images would you ballpark say that I would get and a half day. And it could be around 20 images for a half day. And that's something just to like be prepared for because they are shooting more intentionally and not as sporadically. Just as a lot. It is a lot. Yeah, it is a lot. But like it's and sometimes, I mean, there's like, even the give more perspective, if you're shooting for a business like, like, when you have products that you're shooting there, they'll probably take it could take a full day. And they could be getting four to five images off of just there's so much detail and intentionality goes into that. Just I think for designers to realize, okay, it's better probably not to have more but have more quality.
Kate Bendewald
I was gonna say quality over quantity is the goal.
Jeff Jones
So I would say like just asked that question in the contract as well that we could talk about, maybe we do another conversation like how do you? How do you prepare for a shoe? What does that look like? And like all the it takes for the designer and the photographer? And then even post? Like, how do you walk through press? That would be like there could be so many different things you talk about in that process. But Kate, thanks for having me.
Kate Bendewald
Oh my gosh, this is a great way to kick off.
Jeff Jones
Maybe we talk about sevens and creativity or how do you use Enneagram for your, for your brand and creativity and owning your strengths? Oh man, I can't get on a soapbox with all that
Kate Bendewald
for those who are watching this on YouTube on video. Like I'm just beaming. I'm talking about those things. That's that's what this podcast is all about. I try to bring on people that I don't know, as well as friends and just have a fun conversation and learn so much, Jeff, tell people where they can find you out there on the web,
Jeff Jones
on the inner interwebs. The Internet. You can find me at Jeff Jones photo.com. My Instagram handle is Jeff underscore Jones underscore photo. I think that's all I have. That's great.
Kate Bendewald
That's where that's where we'll go well, we're always gonna go to Instagram, always go to websites. That's easy, breezy, and we'll be sure to link to all that in the show notes. All right, Jeff. Thanks so much.
Kate Bendewald
I'll talk to you real soon. Okay, see ya. Bye.
Kate Bendewald
Thank you so much for letting me spend part of this day with you. If you're loving this podcast, please share it with a friend who you think might also love it. Or perhaps you can take just 30 seconds to open your podcast app and leave us a five star rating. And if you have just an extra minute, go ahead and leave a review. This helps me so much and it helps other designers like you to find the podcast. It also adds fuel to my motivation to keep making great episodes just for you. However you choose to help. Please know I appreciate you so very much. Thank you, my friend. Have a wonderful rest of your day and I'll see you next time
