#71 | How to Run a Successful Family-Owned Interior Design Business
Welcome to the Designers Oasis podcast. I'm your host, Kate Bendewald. If you're tired of one-size-fits-all all advice to running your interior design business, you're in the right place. Join me each week as we dive into topics to help you run a thriving interior design business. Without the hustle. We'll talk about the business of design, but also mindset and mental health because I know when you thrive, so will your life and business. It wasn't that long ago that I stepped away from my corporate interior design job to build my own design business so that I could realize my own creative dreams, have more time with the people I love, and serve my clients at the highest level, while making more money than I ever could have working for someone else. It wasn't always easy, and I made my share of mistakes along the way. Fast forward to today. And I've learned a thing or two. Since then I've built multiple six-figure interior design businesses on authentic word-of-mouth referrals with many repeat clients. And I want to share it all with you the ambitious, inspired, and I get it occasionally overwhelmed interior designer who shares this dream of transforming lives through the art of interior design, You can do this. Thank you for letting me spend part of this day with you. Let's get to it.
Kate Bendewald
My guest today are the mother and daughter duo Susan Hayward and Jillian Hayward a Scheibel from Milton, Massachusetts. After her career and Public Relations and Development, Susan left the corporate world to raise her family and help her husband launch a successful photography business. Before long, Susan realized it was time to pursue her own dream of interior of an interior design career. So she went back to school and launched her firm in 2006. Fast forward and her daughter Jillian a marine biologist started helping her mom part time, where she discovered she had caught the bug to realizing her passion for design. Jillian too, turned her full focus toward an interior design education and now works full time with her mom, Susan. Today, Susan and Jillian run their firm with a simple philosophy that interior design, it should reflect the personality and the lifestyle of the client, not the interior designer. I'm so thrilled to have you guys with us today. Hi, Julian. Hi, Susan. How are you? Hello,
Jillian Hayward
we're good. Thank you so much for having us. We're so excited.
Jillian Hayward
Thank you so much for inviting us onto your podcast. Oh
Kate Bendewald
my gosh, I'm thrilled. And when I first sort of you, we sort of crossed paths. I thought to myself, heck yeah, I want to talk to these ladies. Because first of all, being in business together with a family member is a serious commitment. And so I'm super intrigued and interested to hear how you guys make that work. But the other piece that really struck me that I think our audience is going to really enjoy hearing from you about is you say it's an unconventional path. But I don't know that it's as unconventional because I have been talking and working with designers for full time for about five years now. And there are a lot of designers who this is their second if not third career. And I think it's because this career works. Like it checks a lot of boxes in terms of flexibility, creativity, potential for profitability. And so but I think that hearing your windy path is going to really resonate to a lot of our audience so because I think they'll see themselves too in that you know what I'm saying? So, I'm just excited to hear kind of how you guys have come together how it's all worked what's been hard, right? Because we know this is not a straightforward path this work that we do so I'm I'm excited to get into all of that.
Jillian Hayward
Some we're so excited to now
Kate Bendewald
you guys are in Milton, Massachusetts. I've never been to Massachusetts, but tell me because I My understanding is just like one of the most beautiful and I love old places like beautiful places in America. Tell me tell me about Milton, Massachusetts. Milton, it's
Susan Hayward
very Suburban. There. It's not a lot of industry here. It has just it's just there's a lot of open space, a lot of green. A lot of colonial homes very traditional. I think it's what you would think of New England. Yeah.
Jillian Hayward
Yeah.
Kate Bendewald
I was. I struggle with rabbit hole sometimes. And I found myself on Redfin, looking at real estate in Milton, Massachusetts earlier this morning. And I was, I was in love with the homes, they're, they're so beautiful, I love old homes. And I I would be, I would love to come visit that part of the country some time.
Susan Hayward
It's interesting, because that's actually part of our niche as to what we're doing a little bit differently when we get to that part of it, because having to do it. Yeah, with the West Coast inspiration. Since she's, she has spent some time out there, that's really changed our business so that we're able to give a little bit more to our clients than just what they're expecting here on the East Coast, we try to give them a little something fresh and different.
Kate Bendewald
Oh my gosh, okay, I'm really excited to dig into that. But I do want to give a little bit of backstory. So I want you guys to share, I know that you've had said before that it feels like an unconventional path. So you, Susan, first started out after you left your corporate job, you helped your husband launch as successful photography business. And you sort of recognized, I got this business thing down, but I really want to pursue this passion and of its true design. And so you turned your attention full time to that. So let's start there. How did that transition go? Can you sort of teleport yourself back to that era when this was this was just a twinkle in your eye before it was real? What conversations were you having with yourself? What were you talking about with your spouse? What were you worried about? What were you excited about? And just sort of give me an idea of how you worked through moving it from just an idea into this full fledged business that you have today?
Susan Hayward
Sure, sure. You know, having the photography business when my kids were young, being an entrepreneur and being able to have my own time and be flexible. I've always said family first. And that's part of our partnership as mother daughter as well, there is nothing more important than family. So when I started the business with my husband, that was part of it, it was like, I'm only going to do this, if I can be there to raise my children and to be there when they need me to be there. If they're sick, I want to be the one that, you know, that can do that I have the flexibility to do that. Not all women do. And I'm so appreciative that I was always able to do that. But it got to a point where the kids were teenagers. And it was like, Gee, Chanel is like, I'm getting a little bored like this more than I want to do. I'd always done interior design with my friends, you know, in my own house and thought gee, wouldn't, wouldn't this be great. However, I also knew that to be an interior designer, I wanted to be legitimate, like, I didn't want to just hang a shingle out there and say, I have a really good design sense. So let me be an interior designer. And I think that that's a mistake that a lot of people make is they think because you have a good design sense. You can become an interior designer. You know, I knew that wasn't right. So I decided to go back to school. That was my biggest. You know, I wasn't young, and my kids were teenagers, I was gonna go back to school, it was an you know, my kids are going to be having college tuition come up in here, I've got a college tuition coming up. Is this something I really want to do? So that was the terrifying part. For me, it was never about starting the business or to do any of that it was the going back to school. And I was the you know, the older person in the classroom. They were all these 20 Somethings and me and I was kind of mom to everyone. It was hard. But you know, I think for someone who wants to go this path, if you want to do it, you have to do it and do it. Right. There's so many things going through that that I did not know, you know, more things that I didn't know that I did know. So I think that you have to become legitimate, you have to make sure that you're you have the education behind you to then move forward and put your shingle out and say, now I can legitimately have this business. Yeah,
Kate Bendewald
yeah. It's, it's interesting because you had this business background, but you recognize that you lacked sort of the technical skills, which I think is something that a lot of people don't understand or realize coming into this career, how technical and how nuanced it can be and the responsibility of a designer. And so it is important I believe to you because there's designers like myself, like I had the degree but and I had the education but I didn't understand the business side. So I had to figure that piece out. And for that's true for a lot of designers. And it's the opposite is true that have come from having different sort of skill sets, but don't have that the technical piece figured out. So I always, always, always recommend that designers get a design education. And the cool thing is today, there are so many options out there. And, you know, it doesn't always have to be a full fledged four year degree program. There are other programs that are more abbreviated and more flexible. And so I do think that now more than ever, there are options that can help you get that education piece because you will, you will be more confident, because you can really stand behind your work. And in that way. So okay, so you went to school, and then you did you work for DOD, or did you go straight into building your own business?
Jillian Hayward
Well, you know, it's interesting, because coming out of school, I already had a network built. I already had a business, I already had a network, I had people that I knew it wasn't like I was 20 something thinking, What do I do now. So my business was just a natural extension of what I was currently doing. It kind of went off to all of those contacts, and they all knew what I was doing. So I kind of hit the ground running. And we haven't stopped since you know, it's great. It's one of those things where networking is everything. You know, we say every person that you meet on a job is a potential next job. Yeah, it could be a plumber, the electrician, the tile guy, the whoever it might be that you're meeting, that someone else is going to help you make your business go. And you start small, you know, maybe at first you just recover a few chairs, you know, and then move on to a full roam and then move on tour renovation before you tackle a whole house or, you know, kind of go slowly.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, yeah, I like it's a really refreshing way of looking at the people that you meet. And I think that there's a lot of people, perhaps younger, early designers that don't have that confidence to sort of go out and talk about what they do with clarity. And that's what I'm here hoping to help people do. But it's like recognizing that everyone you meet is a prospective clients or a connection to a prospective client, like, literally anybody could be the person, you know, and not discounting those, those interactions. So So then, I want to Jillian, I want to get to you because you at some point started pitching in and helping your mom at part time. But you come from a military background, your husband is in the Navy. And by the way, thank you for your service, because it is a whole family that commits to this I understand. Absolutely. And you but so you went to college, you have a BA marine science, and then you sort of work in this. Tell us walk us through kind of how you went from your college experience to being a marine scientist and how that was sort of wove its way into where you are today. Yeah, sure.
Jillian Hayward
So I was finishing up my degree as a senior at Boston University, studying marine biology as you mentioned, that year actually, as a junior I met my husband later in that year and he was a year older than me so I was almost done with my with my degree. I had one more year left but he was heading off to Pensacola, Florida for his pilot training. So he was joining as a Navy pilot and at that time didn't know but he was going to soon be a helicopter pilot. So after I graduated, I was still together with him and I decided let's move to Florida why not go to join him? So I literally graduated and the next day started driving down at that point I did have a job ready at a zoo down there because it was the anything Are you really the only thing I could find that was in the realm of what I wanted to do there was nothing Marine Science wise that that really interested me but I decided to take a role at this zoo and totally out of my comfort zone but I love nature I love animals why not? had a pretty good you know, scientific education at that point. So interesting but I loved my time there and that's when I really started just helping Susan on the side kind of right off the gate and in Florida really just with administrative issues so she was getting you know so many orders through and getting more and more clients needing help with her things like her website, just things on the back end that I needed nothing interior design And you know, knowledge for just to kind of help on a business standpoint. So that's where I started with her. And it was really just a few hours a week, maybe helping with some blog posts or Facebook posts and things like that. So the more we started working together, during my time in Florida, the more I started really there just enjoying, not only working with my mom, but you know, seeing like, wow, this is this doesn't really feel like work. This is fun. The clients are great. You have such great relationships. And my mom and I, you know, we're already best friends. So it's like, great, you work with your mom and your best friend like, work life balance. That's the dream, right? Yeah, yeah. And so after that, we moved to San Diego for his next tour. And we spent several tours in San Diego. At that time, I was actually guiding naturalist tours on kayaks and doing whale watching and things like that. So continuing my marine science background there, but more and more working with my mom at that point. When my husband came back from his first deployment, I really just kind of looked at myself and said, Okay, we're going to want to be starting a family soon. What are we going to do? Like, I knew that from the moment I moved down to Florida, I never wanted to not have a career. However, I always want to choose my family first. So there's no option other than to have both. So what is that career going to look like, is really what I had to decide. And it just seemed like a natural transition. So I went, as you mentioned it in an online certificate program, I worked really hard to get all that knowledge. And I found that I really liked the technical parts of it, because that's where my comfort zone was my scientific, like floor plans, like everything, this makes sense to me, you know, and the creativity part of it was where I really had to learn so much from my mom, and, you know, just research and do all of that. So I think we came from totally different standpoints. I really loved the technical side. And that was my comfort zone. And my you know, my mom was just had this amazing design, sense creativity. And so that's where we sort of meshed, right. And so we both kind of grew in both directions, which was, which was great.
Kate Bendewald
I can see this all coming together now. Having heard a little bit more from from both of you and can see how that would be a really beautiful partnership, right, bringing these different skill sets that are so important to what we do, but also really working different parts of our brain. Right.
Jillian Hayward
Absolutely. Jillian,
Kate Bendewald
so you're working as a zookeeper. And I want to go to that specifically because I didn't know you have lots I know you have lots of
Jillian Hayward
traditional paths.
Kate Bendewald
I believe with my whole heart that every experience we have in life contributes to our work as interior designers and business owners. So you have this degree in marine science, you are Zookeeper, can you tell me? Can you think of a specific skill set in that specific job that you know, or or you know, really any of your marine biology experience? Sounds like you hinted at it just now a little bit. That are skills that you developed in that role that translates today into the work that you do as a designer or Endor. Business Owner?
Jillian Hayward
Yes. Two things come to mind. First, I will say just my innate passion and love of all things nature, natural world animals. I really bring that into design, Susan will say I'm always trying to push for natural elements in the room, earthy textures and tones and just making the outdoors come in. I'm also really passionate about doing our best to show sustainable options to our clients trying our best to Yes, it's the future. It's what we need. It's not I wish it was so much easier to do. It's not that available. There are not that many companies, you know, that offer a great variety of things we need. That said, we can always do better. But whenever possible, we always, always, always try to look for more sustainable options for our clients. And that's something that I'm really, really passionate about. That's what I would say on one sense. The other is just being out of your comfort zone. Sometimes you just have to be and you will be thrown into a situation where there's nothing in the world that may have been able to prepare you for this situation for me in the zoo. It was a physical thing. So I actually was a zookeeper for very angry water buffalo that I every day would just have anxiety about going into the exhibit with this particular animal because I was truly feared for my life every time and I don't I mean this genuinely I had to figure out how I was going to do this safely. There was really not too many people to be able to help. I mean, there were other zookeeper but it's you got to do it and you just Gotta do it well, and if you don't, you're in big trouble. Yeah,
Kate Bendewald
the consequences are, the stakes are high.
Jillian Hayward
The stakes are high. So it made me so I mean, I pride myself on being a pretty strong person. And I feel like I was did not feel strong in many situations, there were so many firsts there more first than anything, you know, any other position I've ever found myself in. And I was able to get through all of those hard days. So I think that taking that into a whole different field that really was out of my comfort zone, as you know, as strange to say that zoo keeping was more in my comfort zone than interior design was, was a lot less physically dangerous. But yeah, I feel like almost almost like I knew nothing, you know, in the beginning, and sometimes I do still feel that way. And just reminding myself that this is part of life, you will get through it. And you have to, it's going to be great.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah. I love what you said so much. And I really, I didn't have an expectation of what I how I thought you might respond to that question. But it very much isn't what I think I may have expected if I hadn't really thought about it. But here's my point to the folks listening. And I just I feel like I say this till I'm blue in the face. But I'm gonna keep talking about it. Because I'm very, very passionate about this topic that every single experience you have in life informs who you are today, the way you see the world, the way you treat clients, the way you view, home interior design, the work that you do everything. I mean, I did a whole episode on how much I waited tables at high end restaurants through my college experience to help get me through college. And at the time, I could never have told you that there was anything of value from that experience. And now looking back, I see how much value i valuable skills I developed in that work. And so, but I've talked to lawyers, I've talked to one student of mine, she was previously a private investigator for the FBI, and she couldn't see and the draw the connection. And through talking to her, we uncovered Well, she's actually really good at digging deeper and getting beneath the surface of what her clients are asking for. And so I just wanted to hear that from you specifically in the zoo, zookeeper experience, because it just points it underscores that this is I'm not making this stuff up. So I want designers to really think about how these experiences they've had, whether it's travel, whether it's career, whether it's life, it all helps and contributes to your special thing, your X Factor, the thing that makes you you, and nobody can take that away from you. And so I just thought that was a really beautiful way that you shared. How that experience informs your work today. So cool. Yeah,
Jillian Hayward
absolutely. I mean, you take a little bit of your past into each thing that you, you know, then go into so it's seamless. Yeah. How
Kate Bendewald
can how can you not? Susan, you helped launch your husband's photography business. And it sounds like you really enjoyed that process of launching a company. I want to know when you when it came for you. I can talk but when it came time for you to start your own interior design business? Was the experience the same for you now that you're doing it? Sort of on your own? Did you enjoy it? Was it harder or easier than you thought? And maybe tell us what were some things? Were there some things that you didn't expect that you had to figure out? What was kind of take us back to those early days of putting it all together?
Susan Hayward
Sure, sure. You know, coming out of school. My, my concern then, and Jillian will tell you even as busy as we are now it's something that I can never stop thinking about. And that is, how am I ever going to get a client? Like, who's ever going to know who I am? How are they? Why are they going to want to come to me when there's so many interior interior designers out there? Like what's gonna make me different? What's gonna make me you know, the person that they choose, how are they going to find me and, you know, it was again, through networking and, and just everything that you just talked about your entire life's experience, you know, all of those people that you've met along the way, you have relationships, and you take a little bit from each thing. So and it's, you know, one person brings you to the next person which brings you to the next person, and it just kind of blossoms and that's how you know you go from residential to commercial because this particular client owns a restaurant and he wants you to do that. And this one is a corporate executive and they want you to do their office. So I mean, you start little but it's like a it's like a flower and it just keeps on blooming. But again, I you know, I keep using family first. Yeah. And that was what was the most important thing for me, when I started my business with my husband was to make sure that no matter what I did in life, that that was, my family was always going to be a priority. So then starting this business, now my kids are teenagers, and let's face it, they needed me more home than they did when I was little, because you know, but I want to be, you know, I want to be around then. So it again, flexibility, like I was able to do what I wanted to do when I wanted to schedule things myself, and just had the whole the benefit of all of that. And then when, when it got to the point where I knew I needed more than just me like I couldn't do this just by myself. And I didn't have a lot of the technical, the technical abilities to do some of the things like I'm from, from the old school where you went in with boards, like actual physical boards, designed boards and baskets full of fabrics that you would bring to clients. And then you know, it gets to a point where this is just not efficient anymore. We can be doing inspiration boards, we can be doing things on the computer and in walks this, like light of my life that says she's going to help me. So how can I say no to that, you know, and then every day, you know, being able to have that person work with you and bring a whole new energy to our to the work only made it that much easier. And honestly, you know, we've never had a problem with family delineation because she's my family. So I know everything that's going on in her life. So if I know her kids were sick one night, I'm not going to bother her with something silly the next day. That's a stupid design question that has no relevance to anything, you know. So it's just because we know so much about each other and where we are just mentally, we're able to help each other where I think an employee employer, you really can't do. Yeah.
Kate Bendewald
Oh, I love this so much. How how do you taught I want you to sort of imagine right now you're talking to a young designer and holding boundaries, they want to have what you're talking about, they want to have this family first life and serve their clients and pursue this beautiful creative career. But they're struck struggling with creating those healthy boundaries that we all need with clients, can you You seem to that seems to come really naturally for for you. So I'd love for you to just kind of imagine that you're talking to that designer? Who knows they need to be better at creating healthy boundaries with their clients, and why it's so important, and how can they how can they do that? Because I think what you're talking about right now is something that a lot of designers who have young families strive for and want, but it's not easy. And I'm asking because this was me like 10 years ago, right? I did not get this right. Right away.
Susan Hayward
Yeah, you know, if you give an inch, give someone an inch, it's gonna take a mile sort of thing. So you really do need to set up some kind of a boundary. Yeah, texting now is everything everyone tax any time of day or night, depending upon when they're thinking about something? Whether or not you choose to answer that, at that time is your choice, you have a choice in every one of those responses. If you choose to work nine to five, you respond to things during a nine to five time. If you choose to work in the evening, then you respond to some of those things during that time. But you it should always be on YOUR terms. Make sure that you do it on your terms. Because the person who's sending that information to you doesn't necessarily expect an answer right then in our minds, we think oh my god, I gotta take care of this right now. Oh my god, I hate the sofa. What am I gonna do? I haven't called them right now because they just got home and the sofa was delivered and they hate the sofa. First thing you do is you wait 24 hours because everything needs 24 hours to settle. You know, we have one client that we know right now. No, and we're doing in her entire house. Every single thing that comes into her house, the delivery people I know certainly got to be down there Sears and we're gonna get a phone call and she's gonna say, oh, no, I don't know, I don't know about this. And we say 24 hours, you're gonna love it. And then the next day, she's like, thank you. It was just wonderful, you know? So just remember that remember that people are doing things on their time and responding when it's convenient for them. But but this is your job. Set your boundaries make your time. If you know if you have seven to eight o'clock at night and you know that you're free every time at night from that time sure getting your text messages, wipe those things out, answer a few emails and be done with it. Otherwise don't even open your computer.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, yeah. So wise so eyes and jelly. and you have I understand four year old twins. So you must be in the thick of this right now. You, you guys, you must understand this too. So how do you how does this show up for you as you're navigating client relations? It
Jillian Hayward
does. So I'm kind of, I'm in a bit of a transition right now, my husband actually got out of the military almost exactly a year ago. So up until then, I was really the full primary parent. And also working. So for me, it was kind of balancing being like, my husband didn't have the flexibility to go pick up the kids at school are to do so I really had to figure out a good work life balance, because there was just no other option. Now it's a little different, there's a little more flexibility in his new job. But I'm, it's sort of starting to slowly release a little bit of that. And because I work with my mom, as she mentioned, you know, she knows everything that's going on, we're tech, we're either texting or on the phone or on FaceTime, literally trying to. So, you know, if if I need her to respond to something she will and vice versa, you know, we just kind of work it out between the two of us so that one of us can usually work it with the client, however, we need to that said, if we're off for the weekend, we're off for the weekend, and our clients will send us emails, there's actually this past weekend, you know, we weren't doing much this weekend. So we responded to a few work emails, we actually got a response back saying what I'm doing, I didn't expect any response over the weekend. You know, I didn't think I'd hear back for it until Monday. So I think as Susan mentioned, a lot of times, your clients know, they're just firing things off, as they're thinking of them, they're really not expecting you to be working 24 hours a day. For us. It's nice when you have someone who just knows what's going on your personal life and can just kind of take things off your plate if they need to. But we haven't really had too much of an issue with that. Yeah,
Kate Bendewald
I love it. And it sounds like you've got clients that get that and they know what they're getting into when it comes to working with you. And that was truly for me, the thing that I had to do that shifted for me that changed my relationship with my clients and setting those expectations for them early on, you know, when when my babies were little little, I would have to say to them, like, listen, it's just me and my assistant, we're a small but mighty team. And you just need to know that we take our commitments to our clients very seriously. And if my kids sick, and I have to push a deadline or meeting because I've had to focus on them, this is where I am in life. And they're my priority. So they got that, and the ones that didn't just weren't a good fit. But I realized as soon as I like set that expectation for them, then it wasn't it was a non issue, you know, and they knew that that was my priority, and that they would still get my attention. Next. Right. And so that that was a big game changer for me personally. Yeah,
Jillian Hayward
I agree. I think also, just with COVID. Like, I think this whole notion of having a good healthy work life balance has really gotten more important to people in the past few years. So I think it has gotten easier people understand that we're kind of home all the time, you're always able to answer an email or able to answer an email, you know, a text, but I think having that balance is just so much more important. And people understand that now.
Kate Bendewald
Or yeah, you know, as devastating an awful as COVID was for the whole world. I continually find little silver linings that you know, these these things, the way we've sort of adjusted as a culture in a lot of ways for good. And so that's one of them, you know, and so it's nice when we can sort of see that for what it is.
Kate Bendewald
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Kate Bendewald
So you guys just touched on this a little bit, I want to, I want to learn a bit more about what it's like, working together as a family. You guys clearly are very tight, very tight knit. And I love that so much. It really it really shows. I want to hear Do you guys have a clear division of responsibilities and expectations? Is there? Is there a Venn diagram here? Do you is there some crossover, what is divide your responsibilities and make it all work.
Susan Hayward
But I think that Jillian coming in first starting with a lot more of the technological abilities than I did, she took over that role. And that was by design, in that that's something she was much better at than I was. So she does do a lot more of the mood boards and that sort of thing. Other than that, and you know, because I need all of her help as much as I can, when she's available, the things that I may do like all of the business end of the financials, and you know, that sort of stuff, I want her creative genius and all of that I don't need her to do that stuff. While her while she's putting her kids to bed, I can be balanced on the checkbook, like that's not a big deal for me. So we definitely kind of have a little bit. And then so we'd have like this 10% And this 10%. And then the 80% in the middle, is this. Yeah, and by that I mean, we have such different things that we bring to the table, our backgrounds, our age, our, our life experiences, are the all of the things that we then bring to our clients. And we have a different perspective, we each have a very different design perspective, we both like different things. And as a result, our clients are the better for it, because they're always getting the combination of the two, where I may not see something Jillian will or vice versa. You know, and I think that having a little bit of the West Coast influence on the East Coast makes a huge difference. As Julia mentioned, sustainability, you know, after, you know, seeing her on the West Coast and seeing how life is there, and how precious resources are, has taught me, you know how much that that is as well that we should bring on to our clients. We, we also love to collaborate, like we love to design together. And I think part of that is between the two of us. I don't think there's one big fool ego. We're both very, very humble, I guess, in our presentations to each other where we have such a huge respect for each other that we can honestly say like, if I show Jillian, something that even if I've worked on this for a really hard long time, and she knows this and thinks that just this is just not, she'll say No, I hate that. Like, no, that's like, that's what she wants won't be like, Oh God, what do I do now? Okay, tell me what she wants, you know, but I mean, being able to do that, I guess the point that I'm trying to make, you know, sometimes you as a designer, you have to work solo, you know, so much of what we do, you're, you're working by yourself so much. Whereas if you're in an office every day, this you can run into someone's office and say, Hey, what do you think? Do you like this is a good idea? Is this not a good idea? We don't have someone to do that with? Well, we do every single day. So we always have the checks and balances between the two of us to always make sure that we're on track that that we're always coming up with a different resource or a different vendor or or, or something one of us will come up with that the other one didn't. And that's how we we approach all of our design projects is collaborative. Yeah. And
Jillian Hayward
especially in such a creative space to like Who doesn't love to brainstorm and find another way to do something, because in our profession, there's not one right way to do anything. Really, there's a million ways to design the same room, right? So having another person to bounce ideas off of, especially as Susan said, with totally different experience and preferences. It's like, our clients love that because we can show them with totally different styles of rooms that I don't think would be possible with just one lead designer on the project.
Kate Bendewald
Absolutely, I there have been a couple of times over my career where I was working solo. For example, when we when we moved when we left Denver, I started from scratch. And it was just me. And that was such a hard time because I'm working for clients, and I just am in my own little world. And I swear, my first hire there in Texas wasn't because I necessarily needed them. But I wanted, because I wanted somebody to collaborate with because I, I knew that having somebody to walk to process design ideas with would be better for me, but but mostly for my clients. And it turns out it was, so I can see how that all resonates. For me with what I'm hearing you say, for your clients, I want to can we talk about sustainability for a minute, because it's just a really important topic, it's really big on my heart, and it's something that I feel I have a responsibility with this platform to start bringing to the forefront more and more. And it's something that I've been really passionate about forever, but I'm like I but I never talked about this with the design community. And so moving into this new year, it's gonna be a real focus of a lot of the content that we bring on. So I want to hear I don't have the figure in front of me, but I just read one of the figures of how many 1000s of tons of furniture waste goes to landfills, like I want to say it was I'm not gonna quote facts, because I don't know facts, I will fact check it and I'll put it in the notes. But it's like 22,000 tonnes or something like banana cakes, just in the US alone. And so we're talking about this, like fast furniture industry, and its impact on the environment. So as designers with sustainability being an is such an important aspect of the work you do, how are you finding ways to design for your clients form and function first, but also with responsibility to the environment? What are you guys doing?
Jillian Hayward
There are so many different ways to do this. Even just small things, the more you do them, they add up. And it can be in anything from sustainably sourced furniture to ethically made to fabrics that are recycled materials. You know, I think more and more vendors and manufacturers are getting on board with this idea because people are demanding them. They're asking for it. I can honestly say on the East Coast, unfortunately, we have never had a client I don't think who really cares too much, unfortunately, it's really our responsibility to say this is the better choice. And that's why on the West Coast, it was the opposite. When I first moved there, you know, I remember Susan visiting and she's like, where's your saran wrap, you know, wrapping everything with beeswax what is happening, you know, like, you know, Tupperware everything's glass No,
Kate Bendewald
Right, that asylum in my house.
Jillian Hayward
This was so long ago, but everything is so much more ahead of the curve and the West Coast that here on the East Coast, we're not seeing that as quickly. So you know, just things like even stone choices, or, you know, new plumbing fixtures that are more efficient, anything like that, you know, find that vendor that you trust, because more often than not, it's specific vendors that believe in the same things you believe that you will be going back to because it's not just the specific product and the materials, but a big part of that sustainability is how it's made. And what is you, you know, in order to create that product, you know, how many trucks do they have driving? Are they electrical vehicles that are driving? Are they coming over on ships, you know, there's so much that goes into this. And so a lot of it is on the responsibility of choosing the right vendor, because all of those things are going to have to you know, meet their checks and balances. And, you know, there are some specific fabrics and furniture and, you know, bedding places, for example that we always look to first to source for clients. Yeah, so
Susan Hayward
it's, you know, I think also the, I'm sorry, just gonna say like that, that the disposable society that has been created, you know, like we try to tell our clients to invest in a piece that you're going to have, and not to try to find all of these pieces, you know, don't try to budget down to the point where you're getting all things, oh, just for a few years, and then we're going to replace it. Right? You say to them phase the project, I would rather you do half the project now, and you get the upholstered furniture that you're gonna keep for 20 years, and you can keep re upholstering, that same sofa versus getting the one that's good, the springs are going to break and you're going to be throwing it out and putting it in a landfill. So I think that making sure that every single thing that you bring in, does not have an expiration date, you know, like that you're bringing in things that are going to stand the test of time. And that you can, you know, we say that all the time, you know, that the big pieces of the things that we want to last we tried to make them classic. And then all the other little things, you can change a pillow cover and change a room. In fact, we laugh and say, you know, sometimes if you give a mouse a cookie, you know, a client just wants to change a pillow cover. And we ended up changing the room because they loved the new pillow so much nothing else goes with it. So you know, those are the kinds of things that I think are also sustainable. It's just making sure that we're not throwing away, like right there, keep it when you're bringing it in, keep it in make sure that what you're bringing in, has longevity. Yes.
Kate Bendewald
Preach Susan preach. I love it so much. Well, what I'm hearing is a couple of things. First of all, that you're making this an important aspect of your business making this really a core value of your business is smart. And that it doesn't mean are necessarily have to suggest that that's your like, you're known as this green designer, I'm using air quotes here on the video, right? Like, you can do it without that being your brand, you can do it because it's the right thing to do. And it doesn't have to be that every single selection is put through this really Glenn's this filter of like does it check all of these boxes, but any little move in the right direction is better than nothing at all. And just having it be a part of your consciousness when you're sourcing. And when you're you're specifying and that it goes, you know, it's literally everything we touch, you know, thinking about the waterflow in the plumbing appliances, thinking about the glues, and adhesives. So I love that you're saying that it doesn't mean that it has to be like this big journey that you go out and become an expert on this thing. Just start educating yourself, start learning who the vendors are that you know where it matters, I will put a plug in here for Lee industries, love their products go read about their sustainability story and how they put together upholstered furniture and it will last you a lifetime mine it will. But so educating yourself. But also educating your clients. Right? Because what I'm hearing you say is that on the East Coast, that's not at the forefront of your clients minds until you bring it up. But that that's culturally different on the West Coast. I thought that was really interesting. But too, it's like, well, I know Mrs. Smith that you really want this chair that's $500 cheaper. But let's talk about the difference between this lounge chair and this lounge chair and talking about you know, this one is eight way hand tides sort of snooze springs and the frame construction does it use toxic glues and the foam is made out of 80% recycled material and blah blah blah and so all of a sudden, it's like well, I'd be dumb to not pick this one right it's putting the bigger picture value on this piece beyond just the price tag. And I I love that you're making this a part of the culture there one client at a time. Are there any other aspects of like you have expressed that niching and having this like, sort of East Coast West Coast vibe in the the family aspect and the sustainability aspect but there are there other aspects of your brand that you want to share in terms of how you are standing out from other designers in in your area.
Jillian Hayward
I think it's really just the fact that we are mother daughter but when it no matter what project it is if it's commercial, residential small project, big project you are getting both of us on as both as involved you know, as one or the other. There's not a lead designer we're doing everything together. And I feel that on most jobs you know, even if it is part of a bigger firm, you're having a you know a principal designer that's going to be doing most of it and then you'll you know maybe have an assistant or you know admin working on as well but you are truly having both of our minds together all the time on the job site. A lot of times we'll be there physically together or we may, you know, take one meeting here and there just depending on availability, but we are both part of every project So it doesn't matter if you know, we get a project that perhaps is much more traditional. And we wouldn't say, oh, that's kind of more Susan's wheelhouse. She'll take this one. This one's more modern, you know, Julian will do this. And we don't do that we're both on every project, you know, equally. So I think that's a little bit different. Yeah,
Kate Bendewald
absolutely. And I can, I can see how that would be hugely beneficial to your clients to have that. Both of your brains working in collaboration. couple of last questions for you, Jillian, you spent a good amount of your young adult life and as a mother, as a as a Navy wife, which did that were you moving a lot during this time? And if so, can you sort of share a little bit about how that might? How, how has that changed your relationship with home? And doing the work that you do today?
Jillian Hayward
Yeah. So yes, I've lived in all four corners of the country. We've started in Florida, and up in San Diego for actually multiple tours there. So we were very lucky that we, we were there for almost eight years, which was kind of unheard of, no, it was amazing. And then we ended up in Washington State and the Pacific Northwest for our last tour, and then made it back to Boston for the completion. But yeah, I think having moved myself, so many times, we lived in several different homes in each of those states, that really learning how important quality pieces are for as a whole, but also really choosing which pieces to invest in. So in the military, we actually kind of always joked that nobody had nice things. And the reason was, because, you know, if it was gonna fall off the back of the moving truck, like we couldn't bring it with us, or we shouldn't buy it. So it happens all the time that, you know, movers will take your pieces, and it could be like your great, great, great grandmother's China that you just, they they pack it and you just hope it makes it to the next spot. So it's can be really hard and emotional when you do invest in these beautiful pieces. Because the reality of it is that some things are irreplaceable to you emotionally, but other things that are replaceable, you're not gonna get the full value back. So really choosing what to invest in specifically, and how you're going to make each home that you live in really feel like your home, no matter how, you know, short or long you live there for so pieces that you'll always have, like, you know that your bed will be your bed and every home right like you know, the dimensions pretty much, sometimes specific sectionals may not work in different homes and things like that, but really trying to feel each client out for what is going to stay there long term, what really needs to be a quality piece. And really just their personality and try to bring that into the design of the room. As Susan mentioned, we don't want to design a space as as us because we're going to leave eventually. And we want that client to feel like they're living in their own home. Not they're just walking around this beautiful place that they don't really recognize. So just the importance of making your home feel like your own.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, I love what you just said that. It's a beautiful place that they don't recognize they need to be able to see themselves in the design. Absolutely. That's beautiful. Say that
Susan Hayward
all the time, we say that, you know, any good designer can create or should be able to create a magazine swoonworthy room. But to have you know, to mesh with a designer that can create your swoonworthy room is what you want the one that you know you're going to walk into and feel like you're home. That's when you know you nailed it. Yeah, yeah.
Kate Bendewald
And that's the joy and the challenge and the, the excitement of being a designer. I mean, I can if I give me a blank piece of paper and nothing like no context, or no client, like I just like this artificial thing, like I can put something together that's gonna maybe be pretty, it's not gonna be like meaningful or have any sort of relevance. And so a question I get a lot from designers who are just getting started is they are struggling with this idea of trying to decide they feel like they need to make a decision. Am I going to be a designer that's known for a look? Or, or not? Right? Because we know that there's designers that have like that signature look, and how much does that play into their? You know, their their branding? Really that's the question that they're think they're getting to. And I love what you said because it points to this idea that you don't have to pick right you can be known for a vibe right? But every single call Client is the next challenge is the next iteration and your your client is the inspiration and at the core, because like you said, you're gonna be gone eventually. And you know, so you want it to be something that they can really see themselves in. And for me personally, that we do a deep dive interview with our clients after it's one of the very first steps we do after they've signed on with us. You know, prior to that we've done a discovery call and a consultation and maybe some other preliminary meetings, but we're really understanding the scope of the work, the function, what do they need, what's the budget, all that stuff, but I, and I maybe know a little bit about them, but it's the it's the deep dive interview where it's like a date, like, I want to get to know you. And I curious because that, for me, that is a hotbed of inspiration. And it can be the tiniest little nugget that somebody says, and I'm like, Ooh, what's that? Let's talk about that. Then we go down this rabbit hole, and it's relaxed, and we have coffee, and it's fun. And it can be an hour, I've had a live gone for two hours, I had this one couple in Texas, they were adorable. And they had so many stories, and we just lost track of time. And it's like three hours later. And it was one of the best projects I've ever worked on. So how do you if you're going to set out to do this with your clients and really create a space specifically for them? How do you go about uncovering who they are, so that you can incorporate that into your designs.
Jillian Hayward
So we start out similar to you with kind of that introduction discovery call, we do a pretty in depth questionnaire. And then, you know, after our first on site meeting, we'll really go through what is the feeling they want to impart, not necessarily asking for words, but showing more photos. So we like our, our all of our potential clients to make whether it be a board on house or Pinterest, or even just a ton of magazine clippings. And we tell people don't just pick, you know, if you're doing you know, primarily your living room or bedroom, don't just pick all living room, bedrooms, anything that you love, and even if you can't tell us what you love about it, if it's just a wall, or just a gallery, anything that just when we look at everything together, it's so much easier for us to get a sense of what tones they're drawn to what types of lines they want to see the overall Do you want to be more liveable and casual? Are you looking for something more glamorous and formal? And looking at all these photos and seeing them in their home? Maybe with their family? Do they have pets? What do they like to do? All of those things, just part of their lifestyle is what you're designing around. So that's really, we really, really, really focus on all of those photos. Because, you know, more often than not, we get people especially here who say, I'm very modern, you know, I want things that are very modern, and then we'll see photos.
Kate Bendewald
Does that mean? You are traditional?
Jillian Hayward
Yeah, yeah, not the more traditional and so, you know, words that, you know, the new clients don't know. But we're able to really get a sense for just kind of seeing them interact with their own family members and how they live their lives is really, really how we do it. Yeah.
Kate Bendewald
Oh, that's so resume. It's those the words that people use, I think it's like almost like buzzwords that they are supposed to be saying. But it means something different to everybody. So I can see how the, the imagery is a really helpful jumping off point to start that conversation. Awesome. Well, I want to wrap up with just to two last questions. I want to hear as we're moving into this new year, what are your what are some of your goals for the year ahead? Or are things that you want to do in this year ahead as a business?
Susan Hayward
Well, I think that Julie and I have kind of been going through this with the new year coming up. And we feel like we've gotten to the point in our business where we have done a little piece of everything that would go into a hotel, except the hotel. So that's kind of our 2024 goal is to do like a boutique hotel or some kind of like a cool small. I don't know just we we sort of have this vision of this beautiful little boutique II placed in some great little location. I mean, we've done the function rooms and the restaurants and the corporate offices and the multifamily, you know, spaces and we've done lobbies, we've done hallways, we've done bedrooms and guest rooms. So now it's just a matter of taking all of those pieces and putting them together into one. So that's our real our big goal. Oh, how
Kate Bendewald
fun. Oh my gosh, what a fun thing to call in, you know, to your to your year and and what a fun project I I secretly dream of of being a boutique hotelier I would I love the idea of owning, I don't want to operate it, I just want to, I want to come up with the concept I want to design it. And then I want people to just have an amazing time there. But I love I love hotels and I can see how that would be such a fun project to work on and you're fully fully developed and have the skill set to do that. So I'm excited for both of you and seeing that happen. And then my last question, I love to read I have a ton of books, both business and novels, but are there I'd love to hear what other people are reading. So are there some books that you guys have read that as business owners or as designers have been really impactful for you that you hope other designers might consider reading?
Jillian Hayward
I recently read I don't know if you are on peloton, but I love today on peloton and this was totally not a business venture. But I recently read her autobiography speak. And it was so motivating to me that I actually felt like it was like a business. I don't know just a business motivator for me as well as personal. I just love her and everything about her she is so motivating to me I think she's just such an incredible strong woman and I am I'm obsessed but I loved her autobiography it just made me feel like you can do anything you put your mind to doing and you just have to work your butt off to get there and so I just I really love that so definitely recommend it
Kate Bendewald
to her name again because this is ringing a bell and I think she did a masterclass because I also Oh I do I listen I watched the masterclass series What's her name again?
Jillian Hayward
Tune de o una and I hope I'm pronouncing her last name right she was goes by tonight but she is incredible. I'm obsessed with her on peloton. So naturally, as soon as her book came out, I had to read it. Yeah,
Kate Bendewald
I'm pretty sure that was her. And it was, again, so inspiring, because she was just a powerhouse. So we'll make sure to link to that book in the notes. Anything else?
Jillian Hayward
Susan, have you been no one, I
Susan Hayward
don't think there's any one book. I love to read. I read mostly fiction, things that transport me someplace else. But you know, biographies of any strong woman from history, I like to take a lot from history and women who were ahead of their time and what they did, and how they helped to pave the way for all of us now to be able to do what we do and why we do it. So I really like to go back to history and find some of those great strong women.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, can you think of one specifically that you really loved reading?
Jillian Hayward
Well, Eleanor Roosevelt story is just like, so amazing that to just, you know, to see what she did back then in her time. And it's just like, every day, you have something different, you know, it's just learning so much. Rosalyn Carter passed away never even knew some of the things that she did during her lifetime. You know, sitting in on cabinet meetings, and really being part of the process and not just being, you know, the person that walks in next to him, the President as he walks into a room, you know, things like that have paved the way for for generations of women after her. Yeah, I think also
Jillian Hayward
like in our profession to Susan, I always say it's not, you know, we walk into a job site, and it's primarily going to be a roomful of men, whether it be the contractors, or, you know, anyone else there. And so, we have had in the past to really cement down and say, Nope, you know, we're we're here and we, we deserve to be here just like you do. So sometimes it's nice to read those stories and just kind of get a little bit of that confidence, you know, continuously built up and keep that strength.
Kate Bendewald
Oh, my gosh, I could go on and talk about that subject for another hour. Because it's for sure. Yeah. And I can see how looking at women in history can be such a motivating thing to to spend time reading about and understanding because you're right, they have paved a way. I mean, it wasn't that long ago that a woman couldn't even start in own her own business. I mean, let's talk about credit card. Yeah, our house like it wasn't that long ago. So here we are doing all of those things. There's still a lot of work to do, but I feel really hopeful that we're moving in the right direction. I'm not gonna go off on that because I will save that for another time. But for that conversation, do it let's do it. Ladies, you have been an app's salute joy and delight to listen to and to learn from. And I know for a fact that our listeners are going to truly enjoy hearing your story, sharing your honesty, and hopefully getting a lot of inspiration about how they can, you know, do better in their business through sustainability through owning a space in a room and a meeting when they're in there. There's there's so many wonderful nuggets here. And I couldn't be more grateful to have this opportunity to thank you both.
Jillian Hayward
Oh, my gosh, thank you so much fun. All right. And
Kate Bendewald
before we go, where can designers find you online and on social media? Sure.
Jillian Hayward
So our website is www dot Susan Hayward interiors.com. And you can reach out we're on Instagram as well. It's our handle is at SU H A y interior. So at Souhei, interiors,
Kate Bendewald
beautiful, we'll make sure to link to all of that in our show notes as well. Thank you ladies for your time today. Frankie Sue,
Susan Hayward
thank you so much, Kate.
Kate Bendewald
Hey, friend, thank you so much for letting me spend a part of this day with you. I'm so passionate about helping designers like you. And I believe in a rising tide that when one of us does well, we all do better. So if you share this attitude of abundance with me, I want you to do just one little thing. Please share this episode with someone using might love it. And if you're feeling extra generous today, go ahead and take just 30 seconds to open your podcast app and leave us a five star rating and review. It's free for you to do and it helps me to be able to keep making more episodes and resources for you. However you choose to help please No, I appreciate you so very much. Thank you, my friend. Have a wonderful rest of your day. I'll see you soon.
