#75 | Copywriting Strategies for Interior Design Websites with Masha Koyen
Welcome to the Designers Oasis podcast. I'm your host, Kate Bendewald. If you're tired of one-size-fits-all all advice to running your interior design business, you're in the right place. Join me each week as we dive into topics to help you run a thriving interior design business. Without the hustle. We'll talk about the business of design, but also mindset and mental health because I know when you thrive, so will your life and business. It wasn't that long ago that I stepped away from my corporate interior design job to build my own design business so that I could realize my own creative dreams, have more time with the people I love, and serve my clients at the highest level, while making more money than I ever could have working for someone else. It wasn't always easy, and I made my share of mistakes along the way. Fast forward to today. And I've learned a thing or two. Since then I've built multiple six-figure interior design businesses on authentic word-of-mouth referrals with many repeat clients. And I want to share it all with you the ambitious, inspired, and I get it occasionally overwhelmed interior designer who shares this dream of transforming lives through the art of interior design, You can do this. Thank you for letting me spend part of this day with you. Let's get to it.
Kate Bendewald
Hello, my guest today is Masha Korean copywriter for interior designers and founder of content vertical where she offers strategic website copywriting services to designers all over the world. Masha uses a data driven approach to uncover the secrets to what makes your ideal client tick and then write compelling copy that speaks directly to them through your website. Masha joins us today to help designers understand the importance of tailoring your message and how to get started. I Michelle, welcome. How are you today?
Masha Koyen
I'm good. Kate, thank you so much for having me.
Kate Bendewald
Oh, I'm thrilled. I love copywriting. So I can sit here and nerd out on this topic all day long. But I'm really glad to have you here today. Because you're really going to sort of break down the process of copywriting for your website and share kind of some insider knowledge that I think is going to be really compelling for our listeners today. But before we get into that, I have to ask you, how did you decide to get into the niche of copywriting for interior designers versus other types of professionals?
Masha Koyen
Yeah, no, it's a great question Kate. So five years ago, about five years ago when I started my business I've been doing marketing for 15 to 17 years prior to launching my business in 2019 and that I started copywriting business thinking that I'm going to write for all kinds of different industries and you know, as you know, we start listening to different experts different grows and everybody kept saying, well, the niches and the riches and or the riches in the niches actually, and I'm like, Okay, I need an each and I started thinking who what kind of industry do I enjoy writing the most for? But I had to try different industries first. And that's what I did in the first year I tried different industries. One of my first website copywriting clients happened to be an interior design firm in Toronto, and I loved writing copy so much. Of course, I didn't have the process that I do today, like a multi step process. A it's now a lot more sophisticated than what it was five years ago, but I what I what I realized is that I enjoy writing for creative entrepreneurs. I enjoyed kind of getting to her story, finding out what's her differentiators. So then when you know when when it came time to choosing my niche, I'm like, okay, interior design, let's give it a go. And that's how it happened.
Kate Bendewald
I love that so much. And what's really cool is even though we are you know in different industries ourselves, your your writer, where designers, what you just said is so important to anybody listening that it just doesn't really matter what you're doing is, if you're a business owner entrepreneur that the iteration is a part of any business like you didn't have it all figured out right away, you didn't have a super polished system, you didn't have all of those things, but you got started. And it took iterating and working with these people for you to sort of uncover Oh, this is what I really want to do. And I think there's a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves to have it all figured out right away. And that's just not realistic. So it's, it's cool to have hear that perspective and story from you to sort of reaffirm like, this is just a part of doing business being big business for yourself.
Masha Koyen
Absolutely, you do have to try a bunch of different things until you realize, okay, this is my process. This is what my business looks like. And you know, five years later, I'm still making a ton of changes. I don't I don't think it ever stops. I don't think we ever stopped growing. I feel like it's a problem if we do if we have it. Like my husband sometimes tells me what every time I sign up for a new force or a new community he's like, but you know, everything already, like don't know it never stops you can you continuously kind of upscale and grow your skill and hone in on what you're good at and continue evolving your process what you do how you serve? Yeah,
Kate Bendewald
absolutely. So in designers Oasis, we've identified four phases of being in business, and it's launching, establishing, so launching is like that just getting started, you're writing that shitty first draft of your website, right? Establishing you're sort of figuring out exactly who you want to work with, there's so much more to it, I'm not gonna get into all of it. But then there's growing and then refining. And that refining phase to me is like, the most fun because you've already got like, the wheels in place, and things are moving and your business is running. But it's, it's your opportunity to really polish and button up. And it's it's a never ending process. And I think that's really a fun space to be at and to work and play. So all right, speaking of refining, I want us to get into this because today we're talking about brand messaging, specifically for your website today. You've worked with a lot of designers and I, I'd love to hear your perspective on what what do you see happening over and over again? What do most designers get wrong when thinking about their approach to revamping their messaging? Hmm,
Masha Koyen
that's a great question. I think, well, there are a number of things that I see repeatedly on interior design websites, but I think one of the big ones is when designers and that goes back, I think, to niching. And I'm not saying you absolutely have to niche. But when you try to speak to everyone, you kind of end up speaking to no one, when you don't have that clear, that clearly defined audience, your message is diluted. And it's kind of all over the place. And when you get to the so for example, here's the you know, the user experience when you get to somebody's website, and you look at the above the fold section, and when you're thinking and trying to understand what exactly is happening here, who are they targeting of a targeting me kind of consumer or other other what's what's the niche here? So lack of clarity, and lack of all identified client avatar, if you if you if you will, that's the biggest one I think, yeah,
Kate Bendewald
it just sounds kind of, to me almost like impersonal or regurgitated because
Masha Koyen
yeah, it's generic, you know? Yeah, you see it kind of on all the other websites and when you're thinking to yourself, Okay, how do I what what what do I bring to the table, but your website copy kind of sounds like all the other designers you know, there's a real opportunity there. Yeah.
Kate Bendewald
And so what what what's talked about the results like when you first of all, I just want to say to anybody listening because I know that we have designers who are in all four of those phases of design right where we're not we don't all fit neatly into one one category one box but you know, to the designer who's listening who's just getting started you know, you you might be in that phase where you just have to write that that initial first draft just to get it out there right. Although Marsh is going to share some really exciting and specific strategies today so stick around, but a lot of designers might be in that like refining phase where they're they're realizing oh, my gosh, is talking to me. My what I've got right now it doesn't really reflect the designer I've become the designer I want to be the the doesn't reflect the kind of people that I really want gonna be working with. And so. But if you stay stuck in that if you don't prioritize that no matter what phase of business you're in, what what happens was the result of just allowing that website to not really work for you. It's like, what do you what happens to designers when they don't get their copywriting dialed in?
Masha Koyen
Yeah, you're basically not attracting the ideal client. And just to, just to reiterate, it is absolutely fine to be in that stage. And that initial stage of business I just like, yeah, exactly. That's, that's where we all start. So this month alone, I had two clients that came in, and they're in the first five years of their business. And the thing that they come to me with is nothing on my website resonate, I do not offer any of those services that I put, because you know, when you were just starting out, if you're kind of, you know, you have like seven different service offerings, I can do this. When you're messaging, way too many options for your audience. But what do you know, because what you're worried about is that you're gonna not attract clients. So like I said, you know, when you're speaking to everyone, you're speaking to no one. So the two clients that came in, they're like, nothing resonates, my business has evolved, everything changed. None of those service offerings are relevant, I'm now full service interior design. Whereas before, it was like the color consultations and this and like Christmas decorating, and then the other, so maybe different options that I'm like, It's fine to serve all the like all that audience and offer this nice services. But you don't have to go to market with those be known for that one thing, you're not going to deter the right traffic, the traffic, the clients are still going to come to you if you're known for that one thing. So but yeah, that's what I see. So it's absolutely fine to go through that stage, we all will evolve and grow. And there comes a time where you need to take a look at your website messaging and say, Okay, where am I today? Does this copy resonate with the type of client that I want to attract the down authentic to me? Like, what about my brand voice? My personality? Is it all coming through? Or do I kind of sound like everyone else? Like if you had, you know, a bunch of different tabs open? If my clients had a bunch of tabs open? Like, what would stick out? Or? Or would they just kind of blend in with everybody else? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Kate Bendewald
So ultimately, the risk if you don't start to take your brand messaging and your website messaging seriously, is you're gonna continue to attract the kind of people that aren't, aren't the kind of people you want to be working with? Isn't the direction you're trying to go? But you believe, and I believe, too, that you can really turn that around with the right messaging. So where do they start?
Masha Koyen
I think you absolutely need to start, what we talked about earlier is knowing and understanding your audience, this is the first step. And if you've gone through a program, or spoken with any of the experts, I think this is also one of their steps, kind of identifying that client avatar or the you know, there's different terms for that. But making sure that it's not just surface knowledge, we're not just talking about because one of the first questions that I asked in my client questionnaire is like, well, who's your audience? Tell me, tell me about them. And they start? Well, it's a male or female, and I don't know 40 to testify, that's all good to know. But we need more you want to ensure that you understand your audience in depth, we're talking about things like, what kind of process do they go through when they hire an interior designer? And you know, what kind of hesitations they may have? What kind of questions they may have, what do they like, what are their needs? What are their? What are their deepest aspirations that they told no, that they tell no one about? And what you could do, I think it may be awkward asking those questions of your client. My advice is, if you're not ready for a copywriter, get your VA or somebody else to kind of interview your clients. And it doesn't have to be an interview. It could be an informal chat, the way I set up my interviews, I always call them like very informal chats. You're just trying to get to know your past clients. And that's where you would start, you will start with either your past clients or somebody you aspire to work with and really, really try to gain an in depth understanding of what are they like, what goes into their decision making process? Do they look at other at your competitors that other interior designers in the hiring process? What sticks like what surprises them, you know, what kind of things are important to that?
Kate Bendewald
So that's the Yeah, that's the first step. Yeah. Great. I love this so much. And again, thinking about the phases of business, I want to just take a moment to you know, remind designers that your ideal client or your perfectly aligned client, this is a person this is an avatar that is should evolve with your business. That if you haven't looked at this in a while, we would do this every year is really go back and look at that in depth profile. Right? If you don't have an in depth profile, yet, that's a great place to start. But don't think that you just do it, once it's done, it has to be something that you go and that's I do this in the interior designers business blueprint, we have a an in depth sort of researching your ideal client lesson. And I just, I tried to beat that message. And it's like, do it ever come back to it, because if you're evolving, and your business is evolving, and the kind of people you want to work with is evolving, but you still have copywriting written for that other person that like, it's just there's a disconnect. It's not that it's just not static, right? We're dynamic businesses and people. So it should change. So cool. So really getting clear on the person that you're writing for. And so what happens next? Because like, Are we are we writing? Are we putting pen to paper doubt or?
Masha Koyen
Absolutely not? And and, yeah, there is a lot of research, a lot of preparation goes into it. Because if you're starting to write already, there's just not enough information to go on. The second step that I would do is evaluate your current because a lot of you a lot of your listeners do have that first treaty draft, you know it, that's where we all start, we absolutely have to have that my own website. I hope nobody goes there right now. But my own website needs a lot of work. Because five years later, I do need to revamp, and I'm in the process of revamping my own website. So the first the second thing that I would do is evaluate kind of do a mini content audit, like what's working on your website? Where are the sections that require work? See what you said before that knowing your audience is a kind of iterative process, and you have to look at it every year, I would do the same thing with your website, see if it's still Who am I speaking with on my in my website messaging? What are the areas that need work? How is my process looking on my services page? Is it kind of like a 123 step? Is that really, you know, because I'm sure you have an elaborate process, maybe there needs to be worked on on your services page, you know, how are my calls to action? So when you're doing the audit, pay attention to those things? How are the headlines that we'll get more into like the essentials? On the website? But how are my headlines? Are they driving, communicating what they need to communicate to my ideal audience? When my ideal audience gets or visits my website? Do they get a clearer understanding of what I do? Who I serve? How am I different? And do I help them kind of do I motivate them to take that action to schedule a call. So these are all the things that you have to look at when you go into your website. And it's hard because sometimes they're just too close to it. So what I would do even get one of your friends, I mean, even if you get one of your past clients, that would be awesome. But if you're not in that position, get one of your friends or a couple of your friends to go to your website and say, Hey, what do you what are you getting here? So I think that's that's what I would that's the tip that I would do. I think it's so important to get that another perspective on your own, because sometimes you were just too close to
Kate Bendewald
it. Sure. 100%. You mentioned headlines a minute ago and I would venture to guess that you would somewhat agree with this statement. But tell me if not the idea of I always abide by the clear over clever when it comes to writing headlines. But how important is it to you when thinking about those headlines? I struggled this I struggled with this on my own had Lyon writing copy website ready copy, which is why I'm asking how much do you emphasize SEO over have a SEO driven headlines over having like something a headline that is compelling and catchy and maybe like hooks like a hook that brings you in over the SEO piece because I always, you know, SEO driven headlines suck like they're just a
Masha Koyen
blast and motion emotion. They are high 100% I would prioritize human writing versus SEO writing. Having said that SEO is important, and we need to have the right keywords in place. So I would definitely if I could, if this was, you know entirely up to me and all the stars are aligned, I would combine the two and create an evocative headline that's partly SEO That's SEO friendly that has the right keywords in place. But that's not always possible. Because of like, the way copywriters write is we take that data that we collect from your clients that we collect from research. And then we translate that into the headline copy and the rest of the copy on your page. So if I, if this was entirely up to me, and if this wasn't possible, I would combine the two. But that's not always possible, I will definitely prioritize evocative headlines. So here's the thing. The goal of your headline is to move your audience to take the next step. It's not to like communicate everything, all the things that you do and all the people that you serve no, no, just one single step, just take one step, get me curious enough to take the next step. So having said that, integrate the SEO keywords into the sub headline, or into the eyebrow copy. You know, that line right above the headline, sometimes we have, so we have eyebrow copy, we have headline and we have subhead. So in the eyebrow copy, that's where I would typically put it, you know, in New York interior designer or Kitchen Designer in Seattle, whatever that may be. But I wouldn't use that SEO content somewhere in either the subhead or the the IVR. Copy but the headline, make it evocative make it so that people feel something that's the main job of the headline. Yeah.
Kate Bendewald
All right. Well, you reaffirmed that and I love that it's like you don't have to SEO is important. And there's other ways to lean into that. Outside of the headline writing. So that's it. That's a really key takeaway, I think,
Masha Koyen
here, if I can add to this as well. I know that interior design industry, most people work on referrals, I'm not sure if most would be the right word to say that it to say here, but yeah, many come from referrals. So even if the the lead is coming from referral, they will still go to your website to check it out to validate to kind of see, okay, I just want to make sure I want to vet and I want to make sure that information that I'm getting from my neighbor, or my friend or my colleague is true. So that's why here SEO plays a lesser role, and you want to capture the interest of whoever's visiting your page. Because if that's strong leaders coming from a referral, you know, you want to make sure it's speaking to him or her.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, right. Yes. No, I love that. That's such a good point. And so true. And I'd be, quite honestly, I'd be a little nervous if somebody came to me without checking out my website. So you don't really care who you work with. That's, that's not what I want. All right. Okay. So can we talk about some other strategies for because what we're really talking about is developing your brand voice and your brand message. So what are some of those strategies that you like to help your clients with? Yeah,
Masha Koyen
absolutely. So definitely starting with strong headline. So we already know who our audience is, we're then leading into how do we communicate with that ideal client? And what you need to keep in mind is a yes, we need to have strong headlines that capture the attention of our ideal clients. And how do we do that we do that with audience centric language. So literally using words like you are, you're like, if you take a look at your website, right now, see how many sentences you're starting with we and I, and we do this and we start this and here's what we're good at. It's very US centric. So what you want to make sure is that your copy speaks to your ideal clients. So the goal is your audience feels heard, understood and seen. And we do that by using audience centric language, then we want to embed storytelling into our copy. And we do that by various ways. You know, you can you want to make sure that your brand story comes through on your belt page and communicates to your audience what you're all about where you've come from, what are the different types of experiences you bring to the table how you arrived here, because your copy needs to connect and engage with the audience. They have to, they absolutely have to feel something they have to find something that resonates with them. So storytelling is another way to do that. And using things like adjectives and power words, there's, there's this whole thing of power words, there's like a bank, if you Google Power Word to get like a bank of 500 or 800 words, you want to make sure you're using those words because sometimes using the right words, make us feel something they are a lot more powerful. And they they evoke a reaction and that's what we want to do. We don't want to just copy to kind of be static, we want to evoke some type of reaction. Because as you're, you know, sometimes you're reading a copy and it's like, okay, okay, okay. But then other times you see copy and actually resonates again, going back to you know, if you know your audience well enough, you are working with copy that resonates. You're not only addressing your audience's questions, but you're also anticipating their questions. Because if you've done your research, if you've done all the work to understand your audience, you know, what drives them, you know, what hesitations they have, you know what objects if that's not, you know, just the price of investment of interior design, there's so many other things that you should be embedding in your copy. And speaking to those hesitations, making sure that the other person on the other end of the screen actually feels understood is like, okay, yeah, she's speaking to me. That's the that's the reaction attribute to get.
Kate Bendewald
Exactly. I love that. Yeah, I call it head nodding copy. You want. You want your ideal client, if they're reading your website to be like literally nodding their head, like, oh, my gosh, this person gets me this feels I feel seen. How, like, how can I get on your calendar?
Masha Koyen
Exactly, exactly. One of the other things that we cannot forget is calls to action. And I am always doing website audits for some of the leads that come through. And that's what I often see that people forget calls to action, you can have the most amazing website. But if it's not driving action, then it's missing out, there's a huge lost opportunity there. And calls to action should be on every page. So think about your about page, that's the typical page where people forget to put call to action, you know, you're getting this amazing, engaging brandstory for your clients to kind of consume, but then they get to the end. What's next? There has to be some type of Yeah, at that ad, you have to drive that behavior. You are this is your website, you are, you know, the host of the party, you need to guide people like where do you go next. And you need to guide their behavior. So you absolutely need to include a call to action, because it's not always immediately clear, they need to click on the on the Contact Us button at the top right hand corner, you want to kind of entice them to do that. Yeah.
Kate Bendewald
Okay, side note, because a side question, because I know that you help designers by copywriting for websites, but also, you offer email, writing services is my understanding. So if you have if you're working with a designer, and they have both, or let's say, almost every designer is going to have the like book a call with me a call to action, that's pretty typical. But let's say they also have a lead magnet. And that's a different call to action. Of course, we know that lead magnets are designed to capture those people who might not quite be ready to book that call with you. But maybe they're still investigating, and they just want to learn more. How do you balance the calls to action between booking a call, because I sort of come from the school of thought and I'm curious if you agree, or you see it differently, I come from the school of thought that you know, have your lead magnet available on your homepage. But every other website, I or every other page, I think at the bottom or wherever it mixed in your call to action should be to book a book a call with me. Of course your footer matters to write, you know, all that stuff in there. How do you I this is a question I get from designers and I don't, I don't always know if it's the right way. But like balancing the calls to action between booking a call and downloading my guide, because that could be a distraction is like the the fear that designers get it's like, well, the lead magnet is gonna be a distraction. And they're not going to book a call. It's like, well, if you do the lead magnet, right? That's not true, because you're gonna continue to offer calls to action, as once they receive that. So I'm just curious, where do you stand on that? And how do you sort of balance? Not giving the I have overtime overthinking this, but how do you balance not giving the client too many calls to action? And they get confused and they leave and they don't do anything?
Masha Koyen
No? And that's actually a great question, Kate, because that's the other extreme of not having any calls to action. Sometimes people have way too many calls to action, but that's a delicate balance. So there's primary calls to action, which is in most cases it book a poll or you know, fill out a contact form, and then their secondary call to action, which is the lead magnet or sign up to my E newsletter, or I don't know, download this guide, whatever the lead magnet is, so what what matters is where and how you display this information because as I mentioned earlier, it is important to guide your user through this through this user experience on your website. The homepage is actually a great place to have your lead magnet so that's you know, I think you're on track with that. So all you need to do is just make sure that you are guiding so for example if you are on the homepage and you You're going through, you know, here's, like a little teaser about my services. And then this, because don't forget, contact us is not the only main call to action, your other calls to action on your homepage would be to drive people to the other pages, because you want to see what your website copy has to do is to kind of work with those stages of awareness. Because not everybody that gets on your website, realizes, okay, yeah, I've always worked with interior designers, I know what it's like, no, not everybody is sometimes you will get people who have never worked or hired an interior designer, and you have to provide them enough information to kind of help inform them on what to do next, or what it's like to work with you. So your first call to action on your homepage would probably be, Hey, you want to learn more about my services, like explore our services. But here's a bit of a feel about what it's like to work with me. Here's another section about me what kind of designer I am, who I help how I help, then there's another call to action to drive your people to the about page. And then there's your lead magnet, which absolutely that's that's where it belongs on the homepage, in most cases on the homepage. And it's, it's the same weight as your almost the same weight as your main call to action. It deserves to be there, you just have to make sure the copy entices people to click on it. But they also have to understand if this is what you want to do. If you want to download a lead magnet, this is your compelling reason. And if you want to book a call and skip that whole thing, or do both your copy basically right before that call to action has to make sure to manage their expectation and to lead that behavior to guide that behavior.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, I'm so glad you shared this because it's such a good reminder, you know that there's not just one call to action and that, you know, not like you said, not everybody that lands there is going to be immediately ready. Yeah, no matter how compelling the copywriting is, some people might need more education, more understanding. And so you can help guide that journey. But what I'm, but what I'm also hearing is that it has to be compelling copy. So yeah, let's it's
Masha Koyen
not just about a button, you can't just put a button and say, you know, click here or, you know, contact s that's not compelling enough. And that's, I think that's one of the misconceptions about calls to action. People think, oh, yeah, I have a call to action here the button contact us or reach out to want to start your project contact us. That's the typical one that I see. That's not compelling enough. Why? What's in it for me? Like, why do I want to start the project? Have you? Have you given me enough reason, or enough compelling reason to to make sure that I click that button. That's why copy matters there. So you definitely want to make sure your call to action is not just the button, but it's a compelling reason, full of emotion, making me feel something speaking to my deepest desires or pain points. In order for me to click on the button and schedule the call.
Kate Bendewald
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Kate Bendewald
So compelling copy, it's compelling. It evokes emotion. It gets beneath the surface of what we sort of debating being just showing, you know, what their typical pain points like those external pain points of like, oh my, my kitchens too small and I feel alone when I'm cooking. Well, the deeper underlying reason behind that this is an example of one of my clients is, oh, well, yeah, it's small, and it's dysfunctional, we need to fix that. But also like, she wants to spend time with her kids who are in high school and are about to leave the nest and go off to college, and she feels disconnected from them. Right? Like, that's the kind of stuff that you can be bringing in through storytelling. And that's like, getting into the underlying reasons of why they might be there in the first place.
Masha Koyen
I love that you said that getting deeper, truly understanding because sometimes what our clients tell us is not the reason is not the real reason, you have to dig so much deeper to understand what are they really say it's that thing where I often bring up on podcasts, it's not the good night, it's not the mattress that you're selling is the good night's sleep, right? Because what is the reason? What is the real reason your clients want the thing that they want? Oftentimes, it's something not entirely different, but it's a lot more, a lot more deeper connects to something very personal. And of course, it depends on your relationship with your client, how open you are, they are with you. But I think it's so important to really understand those reasons. And that's why I do those client interviews. Not everybody does client interviews, you don't necessarily have to do that you can just simply do research, and and your copy will be good enough. But if you collect those that copy gold, like those things that truly matter to your clients, and then your copy reflects those things. Well, don't you think it's going to resonate with more clients like that? Because that's why we do the client interviews and the research and feeding that research into the coffee because we want to attract more of those clients. That's what we want to do and repel all the others.
Kate Bendewald
Yes, exactly. Yeah, I do have a, I can't remember the podcast or a blog post, doesn't matter, I have a resource that I can link in the show notes on how to do research to uncover your, your like, the core desires and pain points of clients. So I can add a link to that. But I guess what I'm hearing is like, you know, the, it might be really challenging for designers to want to just sit down and just start writing. But that's going to be so much harder. If you haven't already done this research and under be able to really crystal clear see who that person is that you want to attract who you like to help how you can help them and that research is just you can't skip that part of this process? Absolutely
Masha Koyen
not. Because otherwise, your copy will simply be what other people have on their websites, which is, you know, yeah, we create beautiful and functional spaces. And you know, we work with family people and you know, designed for family, families in mind, things like that. It's you just need to go a little bit deeper to in order to stand out, which brings me to my next point is finding out what is that unique value proposition that you bring to the table? You absolutely just as much time you're spending on figuring out who your audience is, what do you know about them, you also have to spend time and this is, I think, a very challenging point for a lot of designers figuring out what's their secret sauce? How are they different because when you look at designers and copywriters are actually very alike, these two industries and service providers that are so similar because every time we're thinking about well, what, what's so different about me? That's another question that I asked them in my client was generic, well, what's your thing? What are you known for? What do you want to be known for? Well, I'm not sure what's so different. You know, I have this process and I listen to clients and I, you know, but I really listen and say yes to you, it sounds very different. But to your ideal client, it may sound that like they've heard that before. So you need to spend some time figuring out what is that unique value proposition. And oftentimes to help you do that you look at a couple of things. You look at what you do today, you look at all the different experiences that you bring to the table because they all matter. When I write and when I talk to my clients, they say, Well, I spent 10 years doing such and such but it's not relevant here on like, let's talk about it. Because it probably is it's probably very relevant. It could be a thing.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, you can't spend years doing 10 years Have something and have not, can't walk away from that having learned nothing. Transferable
Masha Koyen
skills, you know, transferable skills are just a different perspective on things. And I've worked with so many designers that, you know, have switched careers, and they've done I don't know, one was in the fashion industry and not a one was in something else a teacher, and there's so many things that you can really take those things and, and and look at it from a different perspective. What kind of skills that I pick up there? How is it relevant to my clients? And then you look at the other side of things, which is, what do my clients need? What resonates with them? And how do I tie it all together and create this sustained to unique value proposition, the thing that sets me apart the things that makes me memorable, the thing that is different from everyone else? So that's critical to before you start writing to figure out what is your unique value proposition?
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, this is why we sometimes do shitty first drafts, just to get your website started. Because a lot of times you don't know all these things. And it's gonna take time to do the research and experience. And there's a lot you can do if you're just getting started. And you've never had a client, but I've just the the thought that goes into your website, I think, and the copywriting just as much as the visuals and the user experience. And all of that is the amount of effort that you put into this is going to, you're going to directly see the results pay out, you know, if you're, if you're not spending the time to do this kind of, Okay. Love research, and planning is my love language. So hearing you talk about how important it is to do all this front loading before you ever put pen to paper makes so much sense to me. And it doesn't have to be painstaking, but and you can get help, you know, Masha can help you with this. You Yeah, I guess I guess what I'm just hoping to underscore is, you know, and think about, you know, designers listening, think about the process that you do with each of your clients in terms of researching who they are, and what makes them tick. And like even at the project level, and what is about the space that isn't working, you can't start designing, you can't start pulling stuff together without doing that critical, pre design research. And, you know, this deserves the same amount of, I think, care and thought when you're doing it if you want it to have any longevity.
Masha Koyen
Yeah, absolutely. And I want to go back to one thing that you said, sometimes you do need to have that experience, in order to gather all this knowledge and do enough research, sometimes you do have to go through a couple of projects to understand, okay, you know, this was not a good client, this was a good client, these are the kind of clients that I want to work with. Now, let's look at my process, you know, what worked, what didn't be, so you need to have a few projects, in order to start kind of articulating in order to start crafting this thing, this grant these processes and systems. So I would say one thing that I often not to turn business away from you, but I often don't recommend hiring a copywriter, when you're just starting up because you just simply you don't have enough experience or if you've never worked with with clients, like start with that shitty draft. And that shady draft is actually the right first step, because at least you're playing something, you know, you're putting it into the market, you have the bare minimum. And that's good enough. And then you know, two, three years later, or a couple of projects later, you start to understand hmm, I actually don't want to offer half of these services. And I don't work want to work with, you know, these kind of clients, once you gain that clarity. That's the right time to say, okay, maybe I need to now think through all of these things and see what my business looks like today. And who would I want to attract today?
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Because it can be a lot of work to do to, you know, pay a copywriter when you don't kind of have any of that historical information. I do. I do just want to mention, there's a couple of strategies that I tell designers to do when they're trying to gather data. So especially if you're in those first, you know, very early stages and maybe don't have a lot haven't had a lot of client interactions. This is true for anybody really, but curiosity, what is your best friend in business? And if you can get in the habit of finding there's so many opportunities to get feedback from clients, or prospective clients as you're moving through the process so you it's not like you have to do All this data mining and gathering at the end of a project, you can start with every single interaction every single, like key milestone, use it as an opportunity to get feedback. For example, if you have a discovery call with somebody, and you know, maybe they decide to not go through with you or a consultation, you know, for example, or maybe you put together a proposal and they don't accept your proposal, really important. Not, you know, first of all, I want you to kind of get through some objections and see if you can't bring them back. But if at the end of the day, it's just not a good fit, I think it's a really important thing to understand why with no strings attached, and look, I'm not trying to get you back, I just wanted to say what isn't a fit for you. Because it'll help, it'll help me understand, you know, what I might be able to change or do differently. Let's say that you just delivered a concept package design. So a client has now done the initial pre design work with you, you've done your concept design package, and you've delivered to that. And you've gotten your feedback on the design itself. After a couple of days, you could send them an email or a questionnaire and just say, Hey, we're halfway through the design part of this project, I just want to hear how things are going, What if what has worked for you what could be better or different. And let's say that they rave and say, Oh, my gosh, the way you delivered, this was so organized and helped us see the big picture. And they will tell you what your secret sauce is. They'll also tell you what needs work if you are willing to ask right after a presentation, like asking them the same things like design aside, how's your experience so far working with us together so you can start to gather this information at every turning point, also, the client intake forms that come through when they initially reach out to you, that is a goldmine of of words that you can look at to help you understand what what people are struggling with. So if you're just getting started, and you're like, how am I going to do all of this research, this is this is how these are some ways that you can start to incorporate it in your everyday practice.
Masha Koyen
That's so amazing. This is such a I felt like everything resonated what you just said, and I hope designers are actually doing that. Because sometimes, you know, when we're in this project, and we just get busy. And you know, your clients are asking questions, and you're kind of answering we're going through motions, I think it's so important to take a second and proactively look for that feedback, what you just said and actually recorded somewhere. I think that's the key actually recorded somewhere, save it because down the road when this when you're doing a post mortem, if you are doing like a post project evaluation, which you absolutely have to be doing then, you know, like revising the contract, like make sure to not do that, or this or whatever it is situate situation. You know, there's always a lesson.
Kate Bendewald
A very experienced interior designer, like you've seen and heard it all, by the way. Yeah,
Masha Koyen
I knew how to do that. So yeah, so recording how like a bank of information or bank of ideas or bank of some type of I don't know, like customer touchpoints customer concerns or feedback. And then by the way, those those words that they do say like their immediate feedback, that could be a customer testimonial, and I love what you said about the sometimes clients will often tell you what your secret sauce is, that's gold. That's the whole reason why I do this client interviews because what I'm going through like a 20 page transcript of a half an hour call, and a thing keeps popping up where a client would constantly comment on something. That's a pattern that's making me think like, oh, okay, so it's not this that they're all excited about. At the end, it's something entirely different. And this is your this could be your unique value proposition.
Kate Bendewald
I yeah, I cannot tell you how many phone calls have been on your sometimes you're so close to your gift that you can't see it. Right. And, and, and we I you know, the hundreds of designers I've worked with what I see so often are just the humility is lovely. But it can sometimes be like, it's like you can't see your gift. And it takes working with somebody to help you pull that out or look for it and then be willing to say, Yeah, I actually do that really well. And I just didn't I didn't think that was a thing. Right. Let me ask you this question. If, if a designer wants to go back and interview maybe a past client, but maybe it feels odd or weird for them to do it themselves. Like, tell me how fabulous I am right? What are some other ways that designers could approach their clients? Or like who are some other supporting people that might be able to do an interview with them? Is that something you do? Or VAs do or both?
Masha Koyen
That's so funny that you asked that. So here's the thing. So yes, you could do a couple of things. And actually, this is one of the service that services that I'm starting to offer. After I just went, I just came back from a conference in Florida, where there were like, 300, interior designers in the room. And after multiple conversations over lunch, I'm like, Hmm, like, this is the thing that people want. So I should be creating like a separate service for that. So I definitely do have a service where I just interview, but funnily enough, it is odd talking to your clients and asking them because sometimes clients may not be as honest with you, they may want to tell you the things that you want to hear. And that's not good research. Honestly, that's a great customer testimonial. But that is not the thing that I'm searching for, that I'm seeking. So what I just recently did, as I mentioned, in the beginning, I'm going through the revamp, I've actually hired a research analyst to for her to actually do my own research project. So she's interviewing five of my clients, because I am in the process of rewriting website copy. So you absolutely can outsource something like that you can outsource it to a copywriter. Like I said, I would be happy to do that. But if you equip your virtual assistants with the right questions, because half of the battle is actually the right questions, if you're asking them the right questions, you could get really great data. And here's just to give you a bit of a tip, here are the things that you should be looking for. So you're looking for pain points, you're looking in those interviews, if you want to write those down, you're looking for pain points, you're looking to understand, you know, thinking back to two, before they hired you as an interior designer, what what what were some of the challenges that you were facing? So this is a good question to include, as you're trying to uncover those pain points. And another thing you're looking to uncover is the desires, what is that thing that you want? At the end of the day after this interior design project? What are you really after? You're also looking for clients affinity? So you know what exactly resonated about me as, as your interior designer? What's something that surprised you in working with me? Then we're looking for benefits? Like what are the three, like the three to five benefits of as a result of this of this project? And we also looking for beliefs, meaning, what did they once believe, before working with a designer that they no longer do? Because that information is critical. Once you have that information, you can then feed it into your website copy. And this is how you anticipate questions. This is how you overcome people's objections.
Kate Bendewald
I was. Yeah, I was gonna say something that Yeah, it's like you, your website can do so much work for you before you ever get on a phone call. When you understand that you can address their objections before they ever get on the phone with you so that by the time they do, they're already there. They're there. They just need.
Masha Koyen
They just need a bit more of this. Yeah, it's a bit more of you IRL. But, but yeah, your website should be anticipating all of those questions and overcoming objections, which is why we need to do so much research prior to actually ready.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, hey, I really think that the designers listening to this right now should be like pausing, like, go back and re listen to this, go back and buy if you're not ready to hire a copywriter. But let's talk about working with a copywriter because I think I I love to write, but I it's not always practical for me with the amount of time that I have, and the amount of energy that I have. And you know, really just trying to build a business and be out there and meeting people and doing all of those things. I know, I know. And so I am truly truly embracing the reality that just because I can doesn't mean I should. Oh, I love that this is actually
Masha Koyen
one of my favorite sayings.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, so, okay, so somebody's listening right now and they're thinking, I might be at that place where, you know, it just would be more efficient, more effective, to work with Marsha to help me do this and helped me see it through. Can you talk a little bit about like, you're just overview of your process. You still you've kind of given it to us all? Episode long, but where would people start? If they wanted to think about working with you? Yeah,
Masha Koyen
first things first, just get on my calendar, and let's chat, let's even determine I'll help you determine if you're even in the right place to outsource. Because sometimes we're not ready for that kind of investment. We're not ready for that kind of time commitment. We're just not at the stage of our business. So let's hop on the call, you can find that information, I'm sure you write in the notes. But my process is a six step process. I developed it specifically for interior designers. It's called reveal, it's a strategic framework for writing website copy. And just like I shared in the most of the like, across this conversation, most of it is research. The first step is research and discovery. And that's where I'm really learning about your brand. What are you all about? What do you bring to the table? What's your differentiator, oftentimes, I help clients actually determine and articulate that differentiator because they, they may have an idea, but they don't always know how to put it into words. And that's what I helped them do it that first stage, the second step is extracting key messages. And that's message mining. That's me looking for all of your stuff, your existing message, your social media. And at this step, this is where I'm also trying to capture your brand voice. Because at the end of the day, you want to make sure your copy actually sounds like you and looks like you and feels like you. The third step is voice of customer data, which is the client interviews I interviewed by with your clients minus the all the awkwardness, and I position them as informal chats. And believe me, clients love talking about themselves talking about their project, this is actually my favorite step in the process. And then the fourth step is evaluating competition, I think it's very important to look at who your competitors are not because we want to, you know, do the things that they do. But we want to look for gaps and opportunities, we want to make sure we know how did they position themselves? What can we do better? What are some of the opportunities that were missing. And then the fifth step is architecture of content, which is the outline of your entire website before I even write a word of it. So meaning me and you and maybe your website designer, align on the key messages that will go here's what's gonna go on your homepage. Here's what's gonna go on your ballot page on your services page. Here's how we're going to make it stand out what are the headlines, all the things that before we even write, once you sign off on that, and that's how i By the way, that's how I make sure that there's it's never a surprise when you get your website copy, because the fat before we actually aligned know what's gonna go on your website. And the last step is writing, then that's it.
Kate Bendewald
I love a good framework. And that is a really clear one that I also think makes a lot of sense, reveal. Cool. Yeah, I wanted to play in words. Yeah. Oh, it's so smart. Cool. I do understand before we go, you do have a free gift that you have to offer interior designers, can you share a little bit about what that is? Absolutely.
Masha Koyen
And it's a mini audit of your messaging on your website. And it's like I said, it's designed specifically for interior designers. And if you fill out my form, give me your website URL. And the number one, we number one thing that's not working on your website, I will actually deliver a personalized video with three strategic tweaks that you can do right now, on your website to make a bigger impact.
Kate Bendewald
I just have to say that is one of the most generous offers I've ever heard someone and I will just say that this limited time offer perhaps so yes, you're listening to it's currently available. But if you're listening to this in a year or two, I, you know,
Masha Koyen
that my dad has made available right now.
Kate Bendewald
So you might as well take advantage of this incredibly generous offer. Because I think what, what a huge, hugely impactful thing to have is like have a professional you know, sort of review your review your offer so cool. Where can people find you Masha?
Masha Koyen
Yeah, I'm mostly hanging out on Instagram. That's where I share daily tips strategies all things messaging, clients stories, everything you name it and it's Marcia dot copywriter. So find me there let's become friends. Let's connect.
Kate Bendewald
I love that so much. All right, we'll be sure to link to that in the show notes. Cool. Is there anything else you want to share with designers before we head out for the day?
Masha Koyen
I think the most important thing after we've covered all of these things is just to be strategic and plant like Be realistic about how you're planning this this project because you know revamping your website is a huge undertaking, so you have to be strategic you have to actually plan it out. Like with everything when you break down the thing the big thing into smaller things it's a lot more easier and assign deadlines that's the key assign deadlines you know first you plan then you research that you write then you want there's you have to be strategic and realistic about how much time you're willing to commit to this.
Kate Bendewald
No Truer words have been spoken this this girl right here needs it done. line, I don't have a deadline. It's not gonna happen. Right? Right. So smart. Asha, thank you so much for your time and all of this wonderful knowledge that you shared with us today. Have a wonderful rest of your day. Like to see them. Thanks
Masha Koyen
so much. Love it. Love it. Bye.
Kate Bendewald
Hey, friend, thank you so much for letting me spend a part of this day with you. I'm so passionate about helping designers like you. And I believe in a rising tide that when one of us does well, we all do better. So if you share this attitude of abundance with me, I want you to do just one little thing. Please share this episode with someone using might love it. And if you're feeling extra generous today, go ahead and take just 30 seconds to open your podcast app and leave us a five star rating and review. It's free for you to do and it helps me to be able to keep making more episodes and resources for you. However you choose to help please No, I appreciate you so very much. Thank you, my friend. Have a wonderful rest of your day. I'll see you soon.
