# 94 | Diversifying Your Interior Design Portfolio with Dan Mazzarini
Welcome to the Designers Oasis podcast. I'm your host, Kate Bendewald. If you're tired of one-size-fits-all all advice to running your interior design business, you're in the right place. Join me each week as we dive into topics to help you run a thriving interior design business. Without the hustle. We'll talk about the business of design, but also mindset and mental health because I know when you thrive, so will your life and business. It wasn't that long ago that I stepped away from my corporate interior design job to build my own design business so that I could realize my own creative dreams, have more time with the people I love, and serve my clients at the highest level, while making more money than I ever could have working for someone else. It wasn't always easy, and I made my share of mistakes along the way. Fast forward to today. And I've learned a thing or two. Since then I've built multiple six-figure interior design businesses on authentic word-of-mouth referrals with many repeat clients. And I want to share it all with you the ambitious, inspired, and I get it occasionally overwhelmed interior designer who shares this dream of transforming lives through the art of interior design, You can do this. Thank you for letting me spend part of this day with you. Let's get to it.
Kate Bendewald
my guest is Dan mazzarini, principal and creative director of bhdm designs and archive by Dan mazzarini. Bhdm design is an award winning bicoastal multidisciplinary firm offering residential, commercial and hospitality design services. He has worked in historic spaces like Grand Central Terminal and the Harvard Club of New York, and helped create new concepts for Google, Hudson Bay Company and target through the years, he has worked to enrich heritage brands such as Ralph Lauren, Kate Spade and Calvin Klein and help define new brands like tend reel and Casper. The breadth and depth of dance work has affected over $400 million worth of value on four continents, and has been recognized with Fast Company Innovation and Design. Dezeen awards, emerging Interior Design Studio of the Year Luxe red awards, as well as the hospitality design wave of the future, traditional homes, new Trad and Designer of the Year by Wayfair. Dan and the bhdm design team apply a hospitality forward approach to all of their projects to create compelling, unique and applicable narratives and embed elements of surprise and delight throughout their user experience. I feel so lucky that I was able to sit and chat with someone who is so generous, kind, warm, honest artist, honest and, quite frankly, very funny. We talk about, how do you balance diversifying your portfolio and niching down. So I asked Dan, do you need a signature style? We talk about the idea of creating memory points on projects, something that will leave a lasting impact on a user's experience in in this space. We also talk about his new project archive by Dan mazzarini, an editorial site for home design, which you are definitely going to want to check out. You're in for a real treat. Dan is a delight, and you're going to learn so much. Please welcome Dan to the show. Well, good morning, Dan. Welcome How are you?
Dan Mazzarini
Hi Kate. Good. So nice to meet you. This is going to be really fun.
Kate Bendewald
Dan, I am so excited to chat with you. It's I have been pouring over your work in your portfolio, and I was just my husband, and I always get up very early before the kids and we sit and have coffee and do our own work. And he was like, What are you doing over there? Because I was like, Oh, my God, that's so beautiful. It's just fawning over your beautiful work. And he I showed he loves design too. He knows nothing about it, but he appreciates it. I'm like, just look at this beautiful I think it was the Harvard Club that I was just enamored with. And he. Was like, yeah, that's beautiful. So lucky me, I get to sit down and chat with you and ask you all about your work and your business. So thank you so much for taking time to join us today.
Dan Mazzarini
Well, that's really nice for you to say. Thanks so much for the compliment, and for the record, we're also a very early morning family, so I support you in your like pre Dawn quest for beauty, hurrah, right?
Kate Bendewald
You know, I the beginning of this year. I I've historically had, you know, been a I stay up too late, right? And I decided, You know what, I'm going to change my relationship with sleep. I'm going to embrace it. I realized I knew intellectually how important good sleep was, to be a good designer, to be a good parent, to be a good business owner, and it has really shifted my life. I go to bed early, and I wake up early, and I get so much more done in the morning before all the emails start coming in and I have to start joining meetings, and I'm all over the place, and it is sacred time. And if one of my kids gets up prior to their morning wake time that I think is appropriate. And like, you can come in here, but do not talk. Don't look at me. Don't ask me, free,
Dan Mazzarini
right? You got to do it. And I think it's, it's important, like, I figured out the same thing where I'm very clearly a morning person, not a late night person anymore. But it's kind it's funny that you say this, and this is how we're starting, because this has been in the ether for me recently where even, you know, I've been sort of, like, a new, as you say, like, era of life, and I've sort of come around and like, Okay, I don't go out the same way anymore, and I don't stay up with it anymore because I had to get up and be like, highly functional in the morning. So I, I'm on the journey with you. Sounds great.
Kate Bendewald
Okay, I have lots of questions, but I have to take a sidestep, new era. Tell me about this new era. This is very exciting. Can you share more about what you mean
Dan Mazzarini
by that? Well, I think it's a mix of like age and just life experiences that are happening, but, you know, feeling more more post pandemic in both a professional and personal way, and seeing like cities and places come back, I sort of just realized that, like, five years really just clicked right by Isn't that wild, like, you know, 2019 was five years ago, and I was in my 30s then, and I'm no longer in my 30s, so just a recognition that, like, things keep moving, and I think it's okay to understand that like you me, I might be in a different place than I was then, so and one of those things is to go to bed on the early side, and I don't feel bad about it, right?
Kate Bendewald
Oh my gosh. I love that. Maybe what we're talking about is being in our 40s. Because if I did the math, you and I are both there, and that is so true. And I mean, I did the math the other day on how, you know, how long when I first started getting paid professionally to do design, and it was over 20 years, and I was, I gasped. I was like, how did that happen? And so you're right, that moves fast.
Dan Mazzarini
Well, same math. And I think, you know, for the audience out there, it's interesting, because the reflection is not just about age, but it's sort of like the, I'll say, like eras that we've all started our careers in. So 22 years ago, when I started, things were much more analog, like we were and I still hand draw, but like, you know, there wasn't Pinterest, there wasn't the search engines that there aren't to like, support the design process, or even to shop online in a way that so many people do now. So it's been interesting for me to see the cadence of how we work and where we work and how we shop, and the inspiration that's available at sort of this more rapid pace. So, you know, I think it's for me, it has been important to reflect back on not just sleep. I mean, we could talk about that all day, but not just sleep, but also sort of the whole process of design and how it's changed for me. And, you know, over two decades, where I do it, how I do it, and how we have, sort of, like, the things we have access to as well. Well, it's
Kate Bendewald
funny that you mentioned that, because that's actually something that I'm going to get into with you in a little bit. Because I love, I love seeing classical design and hand drawing and hand drafting, and it's honestly something that I sort of stopped doing. I still do sketching, but we're gonna get into all that in a little bit. But I see that your beautiful hand drawings, and I really love that art, and hope to keep it around. So let's back up a little bit. Dan, I love a good backstory. I'm always interested in learning about someone's personal journey, and so I want to know, I want to find, learn, how did you find yourself at this Helm of an award winning bicoastal, multidisciplinary firm, and to start, I read somewhere that in high school, you and a friend petitioned to have an interior design class brought back. Can you tell me about that?
Dan Mazzarini
Yeah, you. Done research. I that's exactly what happened. So I was very academic. I have a twin sister. We were very academic. So, you know, to follow classes and and at some point, though, I always loved art, and you're right, there was an elective sort of booklet, and there was this dusty interior design class that nobody had signed up for. So I kind of went around with a clipboard, the way that the class president does, and it's like, who wants to sign up for this? And some people like you have to do it to make sure there were enough people signing up to take this so. And it was funny, because the class was in a word, it was taught from actually, the Home Ec room, and so a very different thing than what we do now. But I think just the opportunity to get my feet wet and, like, what is inspiration? Where do you find it, and how do you talk about spaces, and what makes it really was more emotive than instructional. But from then on, it kind of had the bug. And, you know, even before then, like, I credit my mom as being like, a really crafty person, so we would strip those together and, like, reupholster furniture together. And so somewhere in my DNA along the way is this love of the craft and the love of space making. And so from there, went to college frontiers, and I've been doing it ever since. Here's the fun fact, the friend that I petitioned for that class with in high school, we now work together at bhcm. Are you kidding
Kate Bendewald
me? It came full circle in circle. I love that so much well, and I think it also goes to show your natural ability as a leader. I think I heard you correctly that you were class president, but also your ability to sort of rally the troops and say, Come on, guys, we need this. Whether you take it or not in this paper, let's get stuff done. I think that probably was a little portal into what was to come as well, because there's lots of people who, you know, they're wonderful designers, and yet, when it comes to stepping out on your own and launching your own business that is kind of, that isn't, kind of, that is an entirely different animal. And some people have it, and some people don't. Some people want it, some people don't, some people think they want it, until they get it, and then they decide, too many hats.
Dan Mazzarini
Well, it sounds like you've done a lot of interviews, because you've covered all the bases. It's all the above, right? And there's all different people. And I think for for people out there, you know, there's lots of different avenues in being a designer, and so sometimes it's owning a business, and sometimes it's not product side, and sometimes it's sales, and sometimes it's some of those things for an amount of time. So yes, the the journey is long, and I always say to people, say yes to opportunities and be open on the trajectory for your career, because often it evolves into something different than what you might set out to do. Be okay with that. I think it's good to both have a course that interests you, but also be flexible to what the I can be. Woo, like what the universe provides to
Kate Bendewald
this is a safe space to be, woo, woo, I'm as Woo. So you're right though it's it is. It's like keeping your heart and your mind open to possibilities and what's to come and and I think that's very wise advice. So when you started your career, I understand that you started in retail design, and you worked for brands such as Ralph Lauren, Michael Kors, Calvin Klein, waterworks, Movado and more. I mean, these are not insignificant names. Is this where you really cut your teeth in the design world?
Dan Mazzarini
It is, but it wasn't the intention. And so this is kind of like for my last comment, I went to school in Ohio, Miami University, so it was an interiors program and a liberal arts program. And I came to New York for interviews in a time when really nobody was hiring. So I did what I called informational interviews, lots of places, and everybody's like, the work is great. We just don't need help right now until the last place, which, and those, I should say, Were all hospitality outlets. And so at the time I was looking to design hotels, nobody was hiring. The last place I interviewed was a wonderful small retail design company, and they said, We don't have a role, but we like your work, and we think that we want to bring you on. And so it was that saying yes to the universe that led me to my first job, and within six months, I was designing the national rollout for Michael Kors. And so it was where I cut my teeth. But it was also it was a really formative opportunity for me that I didn't realize until it was in hindsight, which is, I learned this notion of storytelling, of brand DNA, and that once you unlock something for a brand, be fashion, cosmetics, I apply it to resonances too. The question is always, what's the story you want to tell the world? And then once you define that sort of, the design falls out of that. And and so that's kind of the mantra and ethos with which we go forward to, like all of our projects now, but yeah, kind of wild that I cut my teeth and retail design At its heyday, thankfully, and now we kind of bring that forward into all our different projects.
Kate Bendewald
I love it so much. But what I heard, though, is that you originally set out you knew at some point, hospitality is where I want to be. You took this opportunity, even though it wasn't exactly in alignment with what you were looking for, knowing that doors could open and that this was still going to be a really great experience for you, but eventually, sounds like you made the pivot to hospitality, to where your heart really was. And so is that the point where you decided to launch your own firm and move into the hospitality world? Or did you have some experience working in the hospitality world before that? How did that all? How did that transition happen for you?
Dan Mazzarini
Yeah, great question. I did not have experience in hospitality before I did. Our first hotel. Isn't that wild, but I guess that makes sense. That's kind of everybody. But I didn't grow up in a hospitality firm. I should say there was a step before starting our company, where I did work at Ralph Lauren for six years, and it was a wonderful, transformative experience. I saw the world with travel. I was doing store design, but it was such a layered residential esthetic that I really think I went to school for design. I learned to decorate a route for it, so pleats on a curtain and trim on a sofa and the right rug and the right way to matte a piece of art, all these really artful details that go into, I would say it's esthetic, but it's the ethos of a space, right? It's really those indescribable details that you make as a designer. You make 1000 decisions that go into the final product. That's where I learned how to do that. And so while I was there, I was actually people saw my renderings, which you talked about, and they were like, Hey, I saw that. Like, would you think about doing a house? And so bringing this route where an esthetic to people's personal residences was something I was doing also, and a house led to a restaurant, and a restaurant led to our first hotel. And so all this is kind of happening in the background of a different full time job. So I was burning a lot of Midnight Oil, like I'm an early person. Now, I was an early person and a late person then, which is, how could you all this? But I think that the long story, long is I had built a freelance portfolio, and my hotel client actually said to me, when are you going to start your own company? And my response was, that's really scary, like, what if I don't what if I don't have clients? What if I don't make any money? He said, Yeah, that could happen. And I was like, Brian, that's a really shitty answer. That's like my biggest fear right now. And his response was, Do you know what you'll do? You'll get another job? And it was this light bulb moment where an ambitious person who has drive and has experience, you have to take a chance on yourself, if that's sort of you know what's calling to you, and understand that whether or not it's quote, successful from a business standpoint, it will be successful because you did it. But there's always fallback. There's always the other option, which is to do what you were doing before you just know more. So that's actually how I got started. And in hospitality was like through this kind of weird, circuitous retail, the residential, the hotels, and then now our work is really diverse, so it's still this kind of glom of everything, but it all applies to it to each other, right? Hotels want to feel like residences. People want their house to feel like their favorite hotel. And, you know, we kind of apply this notion of retail and merchandising and decorative and all those things to all our projects too.
Kate Bendewald
I love it so much. I love that there was somebody there for you at the right moment, that it's and I hear this a lot from other people. There's usually somebody else that believes in us before we believe in ourselves, that kind of gives us that little nudge, that gives you that light bulb moment, or allows you to see things just a little bit differently, or to minimize the risk, and just to say, what's the worst that could happen, or what's the best that could happen, you know, and it's worked out well for you, and I'm so glad, because you're really putting out you and your firm, I understand are putting up really beautiful work. So you launched bhdm in 2012 that right? So that was almost 14 years ago, if I'm doing it quickly, yeah. Um, one of the things that I have read that you've said that I love and it made me say to myself, Oh, my God, he gets it. You said I understand that. So I understand it's important to you to adapt to each. Client's personal narrative and needs, versus staying stagnant in one look. And I love what you said. You said, I'm a master of none, but I'm willing to learn. So this is really evident when I look at your body of work, when I when I look at, say, the Harvard Club, which is a heritage project, it's steeped in history, and you contrast that with the shoreline hotel in Waikiki, right nature versus neon, completely different esthetics, both done by your firm. One of the questions I hear a lot from designers who are new and young to this is they will ask, is it important to have a signature style? How do you answer that question, given your diverse portfolio and background?
Dan Mazzarini
Yeah, it's a tricky question for me, because it's actually one that I've grappled with for my career. I think working with brands to start, I was raised in this ethos of, like, learn the brand. There's there's an answer, right? If you learn the brand and you define the brand, the design for the brand is answered by those brand pillars, or, you know, it's in the DNA somehow, and in a nice way, it doesn't solve it all, because you still need to create it. But you're creating, like an encapsulated look, so you're and in essence, you're creating signature looks for other people. Right? When it comes to personal style, it really is. I think the question to be answered is, what is important to you as a designer? Is it important for you to develop a signature style, or do you like diversity? Because the signature style doesn't mean just one thing over and over, but it is something that people will identify you for. I also think it means that you are more you're more appropriate as a designer for certain projects, but not all projects. And for me, I'm sure you could tell them retail and hotels and residences and dental offices. Sure, that's something we do. I love diversity. You know, it's not just the design, but as you said, it's like the learning about different typologies and different looks and listening to clients and really getting this, like emotional connection with them, that gets me up very early in the morning, but, but I think that the answer has evolved for me, because when I started with brands, I would respond to My clients. It's not about me, it's about you, and it's about me interpreting sort of a better version of your narrative than you could think of on your own. Fast forward, we now have this second company archive, which has been a distillation, distillation of personal style. And so, you know, I think I'm responding to what other people like, oh, you love black and white and neutral. Very true. You are crisp. And you like these things, I mean. And it has been sort of a stake in a sand two decades into a career, to say, Yes, this is like, if you want to come to my shop, this is what it's going to look like. But even as I look ahead, it doesn't stay stagnant, you have to continue to evolve. So to answer your question from that example, I think it can be both, but I think you have to think about what's more important to you, creating a signature style that you'll be known for, or creating something that will give you opportunity to be on more diverse work. And obviously we are our own sort of we steer our own ships. But I think that, for me, is how we think about personal style, signature style, versus a broader esthetic.
Kate Bendewald
I love that answer so much, because one of the things I will say till I'm blue in the face is there's no one size fits all approach to how you build your business, and what I just heard you say is you're actually giving people permission and and learning to trust yourself is also something that I'm really talk about a lot, instead of always seeking answers outside of yourself for what you think you should be doing. So what you just offered was this permission to really reflect internally and ask a designer what's important to you. You know, do you have a strong draw towards a specific style that can be flexible within a range, right? Or do you seek and get excited about the idea of really diverse styles? And I can tell you right now, I'm, I'm probably one of those that seeks more of a signature style, because there's a there's a world where I feel very comfortable and excited for and you know, if you ask me to do a hyper chromatic, neon 80s throwback bar like I would probably be a little lost. I would love to go have a drink there with you when it's done, but I just don't think that that's something that I could really throw myself into. And so just listening to you respond to that, you know, almost, in a sense, gave me permission to answer that for myself. So I love, I love that.
Dan Mazzarini
Well, it's, it's interesting. You you phrase it that way, because I think. Probably, like many designers, I'm a real people pleaser. And so for me, I think, you know, not avoiding, but not defining my personal style for so long was in deference to the work that I did with other people. And so I, you know, hear me say, I support designers sort of doing it either way, and also understanding that, like no path is the same, and you can kind of decide what your style is after you've gotten your feet wet too. So sometimes you need a project or two or five or five or 10 years to be like love that don't love that I want to learn these other designers and sort of see because, you know, I would say that my work is a reflection of 1000 different examples and experiences that I've had, you know, over my life, and I think that that becomes the definition of personal style. Maybe it just took longer for me to get there. But, yeah, it's, it's an interesting reflection, for sure. Yeah,
Kate Bendewald
that's so true and too that, you know, you can pivot. And if you've become known for a signature style, and you have an opportunity, as we talked about earlier, that comes along that maybe is outside of your comfort zone, you know, if, unless it like gives you, makes your stomach turn like, go for it. Give it a shot. See what happens.
Dan Mazzarini
Right? And I love this notion of evolution, like, I'm going to give this very relatable example. If you look at Kelly worse work, 25 years ago, when she was coming on the scene Avalon hotel and, like, Viceroy and Palm Springs and all the it was Kelly worser, but it was 1.0 it was very tight palette. It was very bright colors. It was very crisp, and there were, like, a couple of signature moves, fast forward. Now she, I mean, we all know and love her work, right? We actually love to, like, go to it. You're like, how did you think of this? But it's evolved. It's more texture, it's more layered, it's more subtle color, it's more kind of avant garde than it was before. It's all personal style, that it evolves. And so understand too, that like, what you do day one is not what you do year 20. And I think that's how you stay relevant too,
Kate Bendewald
absolutely, absolutely. I think it's important to continue to evolve, to stay relevant. But I like just this idea of sort of releasing some of this expectation that you have to make a decision, and it's somehow inscribed in stone. And I think that's what a lot of young designers really need, is just this permission to, like, take a deep breath, be like, it's okay. I got this I can do whatever I want or not, you know, and I can steer my own ship. Well, you have said that diversifying your portfolio has been key to your business thriving through tough times, and it's also been key to keeping your designers interested in their day to day work. There is in the business of design world, there is so much emphasis on niching down in business. So how do you balance this desire to be known for something while also diversifying your portfolio?
Dan Mazzarini
Yeah, well, these are heavy hitters today. I love it. So
Kate Bendewald
we're getting very academic over here too. I'm like, let's talk about the philosophy of design.
Dan Mazzarini
And I think the philosophy of this, for me is probably, in hindsight, like my the diversity of the projects that we've had over the 12 years we've been in business and the 22 years of my career, I think really happened as a function of a couple things. Number one, opportunity and saying yes, cue the retail experience to begin right. Number two is curiosity, right? And not wanting to just do store after store after store all the time, cue freelance work and residential and then a restaurant and then a hotel. And when curiosity, when I say curiosity, it's like typologies, and it's learning, right? Those were all wildly different esthetics from each other, and different client asks. A residential product is not a hotel, and certainly a hotel a restaurant is different too, and all like the qualifier. So I think it's saying yes to opportunities. I think it's about curiosity, and then it's become about sort of financial stability. So once, once I've had a team, it's fallen out of like two things, financial responsibility to make sure that the work is there, and as workplace sort of ebbed, and working from home kind of flowed, our work changed, right? We weren't doing as much of like workplace design, but guess what was kicking into gear during a pandemic, people who wanted to spend money on their homes and hotels because no one was in them, it was a great time to do construction. So, yeah. So, you know, I think, I think saying yes to those things was important, and having enough interest. And learning about them, to make yourself valuable in those moments. And then really the last point is kind of back to the middle one around curiosity. I have a great team, and I feel a real responsibility as a designer, for designers to make sure that they are interested in their work. And so that means I want to get great projects, but if you want to learn, I want to put you on projects that you don't know how to do, because that's how you learn. If you are interested in something, and you tell me, I want to make sure that I'm giving you as well rounded and interesting experience as possible, because from there, I think you get people's best work. So you know, I want to sit and do a drawing set for four years. That doesn't throw me, but if you know how to do it, and you can buy the knowledge, right? I think curiosity, it's certainly about financial stability now, but I really want to make sure that we are giving good product out there and treating our designers well too.
Kate Bendewald
I think as a as a leader and a business owner that's so smart, what you're talking about in terms of keeping your your team satiated, right, from this creative standpoint and from this curiosity standpoint, I was just talking with a designer who's a friend of mine yesterday, who was feeling frustrated that her, you know, her job prior to going out and launching her own business, her cat and Revit experience was was really limited, because that's not what she had learned on and so the her her boss pulled her off of all drawings. So for two years she didn't do any drawings. So fast forward, she's like, Oh, my skills suck. And I thought to myself, Man, what a missed opportunity to help train her. But then it also would have given her the business owner that is a greater resource in this person, to be able to give her the space to learn that skill set, because it would be beneficial to both of them. And I really do appreciate that perspective that you have of giving people that opportunities to keep them safe. Let me ask
Dan Mazzarini
you a question about your friend then, yeah, what, what was, what was the work your friend was doing? What was the work your friend was doing? Did I say that? I Yeah, what was your friend doing?
Kate Bendewald
She was residential interior design. And so they had her move on to just sourcing, I guess, and and specifying. But my first question to her was, how do you design without drawing. I just don't know how to do that, because I do them side by side to see how the things that I'm imagining are going to pan out in practicality. So from a practical standpoint, I was a little miffed, but so I guess it was just sourcing. Yeah, it's
Dan Mazzarini
interesting, though, because I see this from both sides, like, as the business owner, if you want to try to do something, I want to help you do that. And if I see that you're really strong in an area, yeah, I'm going to encourage you to, like, double click on it, because I think that sometimes, as a design generalist, I value all of this, but I know my strengths, and I try to compensate for my weaknesses as they're with other people who are better at it or asking for help. And I would say, you know, sometimes, as the business owners, we see things in people that they don't see in themselves yet, and so encouraging that growth and like, I'm I'm sure you can tell I'm a real like, power of positivity kind of guy. I think that giving people the permission to grow in a particular area and say you're really good at that, have a think about it, that's something you want to do, is also an opportunity for both parties. Sure,
Kate Bendewald
yeah, and I guess I can see it that way too, in in practice, in everyday practice. I guess it's really about, you know, in this case, this was something that she wanted to learn, but maybe didn't advocate for herself at that point. But, you know, who knows the the exact scenario, but I guess my point is, is that I love this idea. You're You're clearly a lifelong learner, and one of the things that you and I am learning now share is this core value of curiosity, which you've mentioned again and again. And I think having a strong and innate sense of curiosity about life, about your clients, about your projects, about what's possible is really can be a driving force in you know, your success as a business owner, and I love seeing that in you.
Dan Mazzarini
Well, thanks. And likewise,
Kate Bendewald
how do you decide when you're getting a new project, whether or not to take a project? How does it go through your filter?
Dan Mazzarini
So I understand what people pleaser I'm not great at this. Like this is one of those areas that like, it's not, it's not my strength to be like anything. Question to answer there sometimes is, are, are you the right client for us? Not Are we the right designer for you? Right? Because that interview process, or those early kind. Conversations. You gotta think of it like a date, right? This is both parties are coming to the table. It can't be, it can't be like, really good for one and not for the other, because that's just not going to be successful. So while I'm I just want to make everybody happy. So so it's tough for me, but for me, it is some outside counsel, right? You know, I have built a green team, and I think, though they are the ones who know I'm going to just say yes, and they're like, great, do we have bandwidth? And I'm like, I didn't think of that. And they're like, oh, like, where's the project? I'm like, I didn't think of that. So often it is, it is logistics, but it really comes down to candidly, like an emotional connection, right about, about the gate, someone is wavering on any answer, just a question, when do you need this? I need it in six months, or maybe, like a year and a half. I don't know. I haven't really thought through it. If there are kind of flags going up for you and what you would be comfortable with. Sit with that like, don't make a knee jerk reaction. Sit with it for a night or a day or a week or whatever it is, and really have a think about what that person is telling you with the answers to their to the questions you ask. Because again, this is, this is not my strong suit, but it is in stepping away that I think I have had more clarity, or my team has provided more clarity around clients that might not be the right fit period, or for our esthetic, or for like where we are, just in a project availability point of view, too. So you don't have to say yes to everything. I think is the point. Just learn yourself and learn what to feel good about too.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah. And it sounds like one of the ways knowing yourself you've almost created a bit of a filter through your team that can kind of assess from not only a desire standpoint, but from a practicality standpoint. Is this a right project? Yeah,
Dan Mazzarini
yeah, yeah. And I gotta say, Listen, I remember when I was starting out Kate, like, it's, I think I'm a yes person for a couple of reasons, and one of those is what I talked about around financial stability. We had a pair of bills, right? And like, this is a fun business, but we have to get paid. And so, you know, to the the younger or newer designers out there, you don't have to say yes to everything, but if you need to say yes to something, at least, put find something to get excited about in the project, and put parameters around it so that you know what you have to deliver and when the project is done, too, so this doesn't linger and cost you more money or time, then the project is worth as well. Yeah,
Kate Bendewald
absolutely. And then it's
Dan Mazzarini
just that simple case, right? Yeah,
Kate Bendewald
exactly, exactly, I think too. It's, it's, you know, learning what to say no and yes to is probably an evolution. It's, you know, like you said, there's going to be times, especially early on and maybe seasonally, where you take a project, because you need to keep the lights on and you need to keep things going. I remember, for me, early on, there was a season where I had picked up a whole bunch of projects that weren't full service, and I was seeing the results of those projects, they were just fizzling out, and there was really nothing to show for it. Even though the design intent was good, the execution to have it fully developed wasn't, and that's just because, you know, the people doing it weren't experienced and didn't have the time for it, and they shouldn't have been doing it in the first place. But the result was my portfolio wasn't being developed, and I needed to build my portfolio and progress that in order to get the better clients that I was seeking. And so that was a season for me where I had to really get firm about saying no and turning down projects and clients that weren't willing to hire me for the full experience, because I knew how important it was for me to build my portfolio. And so I did that hardcore for multiple years before, I finally considered taking on a more of a consultation project from case by case basis. But that's just an example of how there's, I think, seasonality too, to what you say yes to and what you say no to. But I think for young designers, yes, you want, it's it's got to pay you right, hopefully at least, at least something. But if it's a really wonderful portfolio opportunity, or if it's getting you connected with an entire new group of people or community that could really expand your network, that would be another great reason to say yes to a project, even if it doesn't check all the boxes. Would you agree? Are there others
Dan Mazzarini
I do agree, and I'm going to just a couple of examples around like you will get something out of these projects, right? What is the box? Is it about a portfolio piece? Is it about payment? I usually have three P's. Is it about press, payment? Or panache, right? And so for me, it's like, you know, sometimes there's projects you just want to do because you want to, like, get into that, that kind of business, a hotel that's not going to pay you anything. Sometimes, sometimes there are projects that are, like, I'm not the most jazz, but guess what? They're going to pay and, like, that's what we need as a business right now. And sometimes you take those signature projects that you're like, This is career defining, win or lose, there's going to be something on the other side that's going to drive my business forward. So, you know, the the first hotel we did in Miami was kind of an example of of, like, all three at once. It was a hotel that I never done. It was in Miami for a particular audience, and but we didn't make any money on it. And in fact, but it was such a labor of love. Like, I remember at the install they had used, we it was like, so adaptive reuse. There was like, furniture being sprayed on the property, blah, blah, blah. And it was like, Okay, I gotta clean this paint off a floor on my hands and knees with like turpentine, live to tell the tale. But at a certain point I was like, What am I doing? But it's, it's an example of, like, young designers being driven for the right reasons, right and understand that those things do pay off. So here to here to support the audience and say, like, yes, rolling up your sleeves and doing those projects for the right reasons. Do pay up? Yeah,
Kate Bendewald
I love that. I love that so much. While we're on the subject of projects, I want to ask you if you were to leave this interview today and you went back and opened your laptop and you opened your email to discover that your dream project for you and where you are right now, just this new opportunity landed on your desk. What would that project be? What does that look like for you?
Dan Mazzarini
I don't think you'll see this coming. It's kind of a funny one. I think designing math, I know, isn't that great setup, master planning a casino, sounds incredible to me, wow. Yeah, well, stay with me. Yeah, I'm here for it big formula. And they're all these, like, little pockets of different things that you can't I think it's like the casino less the gaming floor. Like, I don't really care about that, but like, casino owners will be like, we, we really care about that. We want you to care. But I think that's this opportunity to kind of do this crazy design narrative, and then all these little discoverable things that are different guest rooms and villas and pools and restaurants and blah, blah like that, to me, just that sort of macro to micro, thinking about a project that big, just that would just get me up even earlier in the morning.
Kate Bendewald
Absolutely. Well, that makes sense. It's like, it's almost like these different experiences within this little like micro city. And you can, it's
Dan Mazzarini
a micro city. That's exactly what it
Kate Bendewald
you can take this, these visitors, through a journey, and give them an experience that you know they're not going to forget. You can
Dan Mazzarini
take them through a journey. You can put them on a people mover. I mean, really, they can do it themselves too, right?
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, absolutely, I know you're right. I didn't see that coming, but once, now that you've said it like, of course, that makes sense, and I think it also brings in this idea of hospitality and retail and residential all into one. And so that makes a lot of sense. Well, speaking of this is a good jumping off point. You You talk about this idea of creating memory points on projects, can you elaborate what that is and how your design team have created me memory points for some of your past projects. Yeah,
Dan Mazzarini
so this notion kind of came out of work that we were doing with developers, specifically around model apartments. And I say this because, you know, living in New York, there's, there's so much, I won't say There's so much available, but there's so much interesting inventory that's out there for people looking for rental or apartments to buy. And when you're the notion came out of like, when you're with a broker and you're seeing 10 spaces in a day, how will you remember our client's project? And so, you know, while we design the home for these like imaginary clients. We also are thinking of, like, how are we going to make this thing stand out? What is that memory point? And it can be anything from like, it's a, it's a red sofa, or it's a, you know, a very specific piece of art that literally says something to people. It's a, you know, an unexpected accessory and a kid's room that they're like, oh my gosh, my kid would love this. How do you talk directly to the audience with those things? And while this notion of memory points started in, I think the phrase started when we were doing model apartments looking back on our work, I think it's applicable. So from a polar bear in our first hotel lobby in Miami. You're like, What the heck is that like? I love this notion of surprise and delight. And so I think that there's something in all of our projects that fits that bill,
Kate Bendewald
surprise and delight. I love it makes me want to go back and look at your this, the specific hotel that you're talking about, because I think I saw it, but I want to go back and look at that. Yeah. So it's creating an experience, a memory point that is going to be unforgettable, but it doesn't have to be, and necessarily these grand gestures, it could even be in the details as well.
Dan Mazzarini
And I would imagine, too, you know, applying, applying that to like a residence, right? So think of my dream project because, you know, but like applying it to a residence, like the home that the first president of light might be that lacquer door, right? Right? As you approach within each room, you could have separate ones. So I think that there's, like, this macro and micro opportunity to do that on all of our projects. Yeah,
Kate Bendewald
totally. I was just did a design presentation yesterday, and we were, you know, really selling this idea of doing something that you don't see every day. And they were a little hesitant. And I'm like, That's exactly why we should do it. But usually don't you really done like this? And I'm like, Yes, exactly, that's the point well,
Dan Mazzarini
and you just underscored, like, that's the value that we as designers bring to the table, right? Because very often, I think the best clients are clients who have worked with designers before, because they know the value that we bring. But you know, don't be frustrated designers like you are bringing a big value, and don't be afraid to artfully encourage your clients to do things that are outside of their comfort zone, because very often that surprise and delight is the thing that they wouldn't have done on their own, and at the end of the project they're like would have been a thought of it, and it's the thing that we love to see every day,
Kate Bendewald
artfully encouraged. That is going to be my new phrase for selling ideas to artfully encourage, absolutely,
Dan Mazzarini
I do that too, but I played with that, yeah, yeah, artfully
Kate Bendewald
encouraged. I wrote it down. I think too. You know, for young designers and our audience comes from a broad spectrum of experience levels, but even experienced designers, I think, can benefit from remembering this that you know they're hiring you to make something better than they ever could have done it on their own, and so if you're just coming to them and delivering exactly what they're expecting, then you've perhaps missed an opportunity to tell their story through through the design and in A way that they would not have expected. So you can feel confident and artfully encouraging them to take to step outside of their their comfort zone. Give yourself a pat on the back. Dan, that's really good, I'm
Dan Mazzarini
telling you. It's like the new tattoo or something.
Kate Bendewald
All right, so I want to move into this new project that you have going on. You launched an editorial and lifestyle site called archive, which I personally binged when I first laid eyes on it, and Ed you share stories and you link to products that you love with everything else that you have going on. What compelled you to start this project,
Dan Mazzarini
Insanity,
Kate Bendewald
kindred spirits. I think we are right,
Dan Mazzarini
right. Who needs one company when you can have two? I think, yeah, the ethos of this, yeah, you know, I think, I think before I was in retail design, I mentioned my twin sister twice. Now, we always used to door, and so I think I have this real, like desire to be a merchant in me. I mean, I'm also quoted as saying designers are fancy hoarders, which I stand by. I think it's true. But there's, there's something around, you know, we, I think we as tastemakers, co collect so many different pieces of inspiration, and until some of our forthcoming product lines come out, stay tuned. This was an opportunity for me to kind of two things. Number one, put a stake in a sand around that personal brand narrative, like, what is my personal style? And it was an interesting, wonderful soul search. But it also, I really see it as an opportunity to as, hopefully a trusted design partner, artfully encourage people towards certain brands or products or things that I think are great. And I approached it, we approached this as a team over a year and a half ago. This has taken a while to evolve, but in my mind, I called it a blog azine, something that you would be able to go to House tours or roundups on products or style guides or gift guides. And within each there's yes, there's my personal take on all of this. But you know, we do. Kids rooms that are bright and colorful, and we do, you know, space guest room inspiration from our favorite hotels around the country. So it's, it's this interesting, almost living document ideas that we've had, but really putting a personal spin on it. So the way we we make money with it is through affiliate marketing. So we invented these links in it, and if you purchase something great, but more than that, I really see it as an opportunity to educate and offer professional advice for people who maybe can't afford the luxury of an interior designer for a full project, either, sure,
Kate Bendewald
but want that Dan mazzerini Look well, it's beautiful. I certainly took I got distracted from what I was doing when I found myself buried in page and links, and all of a sudden I had all these tabs open because I was doing exactly what you would expect someone to do when they go to such a beautiful site. You mentioned affiliate marketing. Before we wrap up, I want to ask this question. Another question I hear from designers is, how do I get started with affiliate marketing? I have a hot take on this, which is that, number one, it's a business in and of itself that requires consistent marketing strategy and dedication and B that you need a following, let's see checks, notes you have over 35,000 followers on Instagram. Call me cynical, but to the designer with a 2000 person following who is trying to grow their interior design business. I say grow your interior design business first, including your following. Otherwise affiliate marketing isn't going to yield you the kind of financial ROA that you might expect. Do you agree with this philosophy? Or am I seeing things incorrectly? That's sort of my understanding of the Affiliate marketing is that it needs a mass audience for it to be beneficial. But maybe I'm missing something I don't know.
Dan Mazzarini
No, I think you're spot on. I mean, I encourage people to participate if it fulfills a creative outlet, which archive does for me. And I'll be candid with you, we don't make a lot of money, right? It's not our money maker, but it's also, it's doing the right thing for my brand, which is bringing us to other opportunities. And so as an established business, I can make that calculated, almost marketing decision to do it, and then, like we do make sales, but it's also, like, it's not our bread and butter. And so, you know, I would say it in this way, affiliate and all these kind of social sales opportunities feel like, for me, I'm an elder millennial, I feel like it's, it's so it's totally evolved over the past 510, years in such a robust way. But it's constantly evolving. And I think the design business is also evolving with AI all these other you know, materials available much more quickly, etc, etc, right? That's a different call for different days.
Kate Bendewald
Yeah, we're gonna have to have you guys talk about that, yeah,
Dan Mazzarini
but what I would say is you have to find what makes you passionate, and if it's talking directly to an audience on a camera and like, authentically representing products that you think are the right thing, do it, being an interior designer, require it's we are an apprentice business. There's a lot of learning. Like, things don't just happen, right? And style isn't just born. I think it comes from an exposure to diverse visual vocabularies. So I think I agree with you where it's like, follow your bliss and or devote yourself to your craft, whichever Lane it is. Because for me, you know, archive is supported by a robust team. I can't do this myself, really, on any front anymore, but if you are that designer starting out, focus on your craft. You know, make sure that you know what you're talking about before you try to tell other people what to do. And that's thank you for coming to our TED talk, right?
Kate Bendewald
Yes, I'm here for it. Dan, I'm so here for it. Well, before we go, one last question for you. We talk a lot about mental health here, and the importance of taking your taking care of yourself mentally, emotionally and spiritually, so that you can show up to be a better business owner. This includes making time for the things that you love outside of your work, I understand that you take, uh, tap lessons. Is this something God?
Dan Mazzarini
How did you find that that's wild? Is
Kate Bendewald
this something that you've done since you were little? Or did you pick this up as an adult? Tell me all about it. I'm so and and also, can we get a performance next time I, uh, chat with you there?
Dan Mazzarini
There's, I will, I will let you know when I'm recital ready. Probably answer this very question. This has not been a lifelong journey for me, but it's actually something that I, I think I've wanted to do for a long time. And so the answer is, this is like in the past two years, and you talk about mental health that comes in so many formats. It's really important to me, to, you know, to bring that to my team and lots of different ways. But this, this fell out of a conversation with someone, and the best part about it is it's just for fun. There's not a grade, there's not a payment that I got to make. There's not, there's not a, I can guarantee, there's not a recital for this group, but it's, it's just pure joy and, like, there's no fear of messing up. And so for me, I take this class with a friend in New York, and we meet each other, and we just giggle before and afterwards. We just gab and like, get dinner. And it just, it is one of those things that puts me at least into such a positive space that I'm like anything like this, that you can do for yourself, make a pot, do something creative, cook a meal, write a book, read a book, whatever those things are that make time for you and bring you joy and leave you in a space that you feel more open than closed. I think those are the opportunities that open us up to be better people and better designers for our clients, and a more in a more empathic way for just the process too. So not yet a rap cat, but working on,
Kate Bendewald
oh my gosh, I love it so much. Just do it for the pure joy of doing it. And I think, too, that these are things that can cultivate creativity inside of you. As a designer, you know, whether it's app or a cooking class or whatever, learning, clearly, you're a lifelong learner. I love that about you. You're curious, and I can see how doing anything like this outside of your daily routine can help cultivate a deeper sense of creativity in your day to day work. So I think this is the sign that I need to go sign up for that pottery class I've been thinking about doing. See,
Dan Mazzarini
you heard it here first. Sounds great. You make pots and I'll bring the tap shoes.
Kate Bendewald
Beautiful. I love it. Dan. Okay, before we go tell our audience where we can find you online.
Dan Mazzarini
Yes, I would actually say Instagram is my best one, because it's my only zero inbox. I'm at Dan mazarini. Our companies are at bhdm design at archive by Dan nazarini, and our websites are archived by dm.com and bhdm design.com
Kate Bendewald
Beautiful. Well, you know, we're going to make sure that we linked all of those in the show notes so people can find you. This has been a real pleasure. You are a delight and a gem, and I can't wait to keep tabs on what is going on in your world? Thank you for taking time today
Dan Mazzarini
so fun. Thank you such a treat to meet you, and I hope it's the first of many. Thanks so much.
Kate Bendewald
Same here. Bye for now. Dan, hey friend. Thank you so much for letting me spend a part of this day with you. I'm so passionate about helping designers like you and I believe in a rising tide that when one of us does well, we all do better. So if you share this attitude of abundance with me, I want you to do just one little thing. Please share this episode with someone you think might love it. And if you're feeling extra generous today, go ahead and take just 30 seconds to open your podcast app and leave us a five star rating and review. It's free for you to do, and it helps me to be able to keep making more episodes and resources for you. However you choose to help, please know I appreciate you so very much. Thank you, my friend. Have a wonderful rest of your day. I'll see you soon. You.
